Value bet river?
 

I think a value bet on the river is in order. A friend of mine believes the only hands that are calling are the ones that have us beat, and also doesn't want to deal with a check-raise. This is a $22 deep stack tournament on stars.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP2 (t3025)
CO (t1840)
Hero (t7330)
SB (t8570)
BB (t4305)
UTG (t4060)
UTG+1 (t10780)
MP1 (t9670)

Preflop: Hero is with K <font color="red"> </font> d 5 <font color="black"> </font> c,
MP2 calls, Hero calls, SB calls, BB checks .

Flop: (pot 600) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(8 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (pot 600) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(8 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t600</font>, SB calls t600, BB folds, MP2 folds.

River: (pot 1800) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero ???

Re: Value bet river?
 

If you don't know the answer to this question (and it's REALLY easy), don't limp K5o PF.

Actually, just don't limp it PF period, saves time.

Re: Value bet river?
 

did you bet 3x pot on turn?

Re: Value bet river?
 

Why would you not consider value-betting this hand, do you smell a trap? Lots of worse hands out there will call. You're going to call a bet, so why not put one out there?

Re: Value bet river?
 

This hand wasn't played by me, but I think limping in on an unraised pot on the button is fine with almost any two. The action was checked around the flop, it was checked to the hero on the turn, where Hero made a PSB, SB calls, SB checks the river.

Re: Value bet river?
 

Why didn't you bet on the flop? You should only play any two on the button if you know how to play them correctly postflop.

Value bet the river. There's no flush and only one straight possibility. You have a pretty strong hand.

Re: Value bet river?
 

My friends arguement for not value betting the river is that only hands that beat K-5 are calling on the river. Also with a slightly average stack going for a cheap showdown isn't too terrible since getting check-raised all-in would put us in a very hard spot. With that said I'm in favor of a value bet, but my friend is not. I think the range of hands that we are ahead of that will call a value bet is fairly large Jacks up, any King, QQ, and possibly strong Jacks. We're really only worried about a better two pair or a set, and I just don't think those hands are very likely given the way this played out.

Re: Value bet river?
 

I would bet a substantial amount on the river. Probably 1200-1500.

Why would you even consider checking 2-pair on the river against an opponent who has shown no strength when the river is extremely unlikely to have helped your opponent?

Re: Value bet river?
 

[ QUOTE ]
My friends arguement for not value betting the river is that only hands that beat K-5 are calling on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

www.partypoker.com

edit: www.pokerstars.com

edit edit: www.onlinepoker.com

Re: Value bet river?
 

with a flop like that, nobody moves to protect a hand from a flush draw is an easy bet on the river

Re: Value bet river?
 

I played the hand. After thinking about the hand more, I probably should have value bet the river. Villain showed a broken flush draw, so results-oriented thinking = he wasn't calling any bet anyway.

As for some of the other comments. Limping with any two on the button in an unraised pot with huge implied odds is a bad play? Also, I'm looking to hit two pair + so I don't see why I'm betting the flop here.

Re: Value bet river?
 

[ QUOTE ]
This hand wasn't played by me, but I think limping in on an unraised pot on the button is fine with almost any two.

[/ QUOTE ]
no!
it's like crossing a highway with a paperbag on your head
----------&gt; DANGEROUS!!!!!!!!

Re: Value bet river?
 

[ QUOTE ]
As for some of the other comments. Limping with any two on the button in an unraised pot with huge implied odds is a bad play? Also, I'm looking to hit two pair + so I don't see why I'm betting the flop here.

[/ QUOTE ]
cause if you play a hand it's better to play it fully, you need 2 much help from the flop even with implied odds.implied odds suppose somebody will pay you off a lot.
in an unraised pot it's unlikely + if somebody go broke it could be you.

Re: Value bet river?
 

[/ QUOTE ]
Quote:
cause if you play a hand it's better to play it fully, you need 2 much help from the flop even with implied odds.implied odds suppose somebody will pay you off a lot.
in an unraised pot it's unlikely + if somebody go broke it could be you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think the purpose of limping in on the button is to hit a monster flop and stack somebody. Although that is a possibility. In general with an above average stack (where average is healthy) I think it's good to see a decent amount of flops cheaply and in position. Also, what do you mean by playing the hand fully?

Re: Value bet river?
 

[ QUOTE ]


I don't think the purpose of limping in on the button is to hit a monster flop and stack somebody. Although that is a possibility. In general with an above average stack (where average is healthy) I think it's good to see a decent amount of flops cheaply and in position. Also, what do you mean by playing the hand fully?

[/ QUOTE ]
i mean if you play a hand and hit top pair with a flush on board and don't bet because you're afraid you might be beat the hand is not plaid "fully".
limping induce the fact you're postflop play is at least way above average, if it is excuse me for making the assumption that it is not

Re: Value bet river?
 

When it gets to you on the River, just click "Fold." It's going to prompt you to "Check," but that's a donkey move that, quite frankly, no one on 2+2 would make. JUST FOLD IT AND MOVE ON.

Re: Value bet river?
 

I'm with you. Kings up on this board, I'm betting.

Re: Value bet river?
 

don't limp with K5o - either raise or fold here IMO - I lean toward a raise to steal - guy obviously missed flush draw and I bet on river don't know why you wouldn't

Re: Value bet river?
 

It seems people love to not fully read the OP, and make trivial posts that offer nothing to the thread. So let me reiterate: I was sweating a friend, witnessed this hand, called him out on what I thought was a misplay by not value betting, and then posted here to verify my thoughts on the hand. Now as far the flop play I think blindly betting into a multi-way pot just because we hit top pair and it's been checked to us with a flush draw present is far from ideal. Let's look at the different possibilities this multi-way pot offers.

a) It’s very likely somebody has flopped a flush draw
b) There is a fair chance somebody has an OESD (Q10)
c) There is a decent chance somebody has flopped two pair, a set, or TPTK/TPNK

I would say it's fairly unlikely that all three players have flopped air. So let's examine how our options (and I can really only think of two) on the flop and compare them to the different possibilities.

1) We make a 1/2 to PSB

- A PSB is going to give the flush/OESD 1-2 on their money &amp; a 1/2 PSB is going to give them 1-3 on their money, insufficient odds to call for 1 card to come (they need about 5-1). However it's safe to say that we will still see these draws flat calling here a lot of the time regardless. I also think we see hands like TPTK/TPNK going into call down mode and just flat calling here a decent amount of the time as well. So on a checked brick turn we still don't know where we are. An ultimately worse situation for us would be getting check-raised. Hands like 66/JJ/JK/K6/J6 (both the SB &amp; BB limped into this pot) are very likely to go for a C/R since it is a 4-way pot and it is probable that somebody will bet. Hands like QT and the flush draws are also likely to attempt a C/R here, and even worse some of the time we will see TPTK/TPNK C/R us. With this kind of range in a 4-way pot betting here seems to only be good when all of our opponents have flopped air or dry pairs J’s and below.

2) We check through

- Checking allows us to outdraw hands like J6 or stronger K’s. It gives hands like Q10, the flush draws, and the weaker pairs a free chance to outdraw us. However, a lot of these drawing hands were at least calling our flop bet anyways, so by checking we keep the pot small with our marginal holdings. There are definitely a lot of cards we don’t like seeing on the turn (any spade, T, Q, A, &amp; 9), but it is unlikely anybody will abuse these scare cards unless they have indeed improved. If it is checked to us on a bricked turn we can now bet with much more confidence as we are dealing with a much smaller range of hands that we are worried about calling or C/Ring us. The strongest reasons for checking to me are that it keeps the pot small with a slightly above average stack, and it gives the drawing hands only 1 card to make their hand if they call our turn bet (since we’re only betting dry turns).

As far as the preflop play I think this is a classic chip accumulator/taking -ev shots and turning it into +EV scenario. We're trying to see lots of cheap flops in late position with an above average stack with pretty much ANY TWO CARDS.

Re: Value bet river?
 

Preflop is pretty bad unless everyone is so straight forward that when it's checked to you, you can almost always win the pot with a bet. Though then I would argue raising is better to get rid of the blinds. I have nothing wrong with checking through the flop, I would often do the same. The turn is also fine, I usually bet a little less, but whatever. The river is sosososososo bad. What hands beat you?!?! Getting check-raised is fine, the guy probably has K2 most of the time he check-raises you. You're not often going to get called on the river but you're basically always ahead.

Oh, and this:

[ QUOTE ]
As far as the preflop play I think this is a classic chip accumulator/taking -ev shots and turning it into +EV scenario.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, that's not what it is at all. I thought your post was pretty good except for this part.

Steve