I hate it when people limp RR (AQo 1/2 party)
 

I hate it when people limp RR PF, cause it seems like half the time they have total crap, half the time they have JJ+....

Anyways here's the reads:
UTG+1 is 50/1.5/.7 after about 400 hands. Most of the hands I have on him are from mining, but so far he seems like a typical loose-passive and hasn't done anything tricky or out of line yet.
BB is 19/7/1.9 after about 200 hands. Again most hands from mining, but so far this session, he's played more like a tight passive player than his stats suggest.


Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Dave is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Dave raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 3-bets</font>, Dave calls, BB calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, Dave dies a little inside and then.........???

I suppose you could argue all three options, but one of them has to be best.....I just can't figure out which. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: I hate it when people limp RR (AQo 1/2 party)
 

1.9 could be getting a little tricky. i think i 3 bet here, call a cap and fold the turn if he leads and we dont improve.

Re: I hate it when people limp RR (AQo 1/2 party)
 

*grunch*
Reraise, otherwise you have no information and could end up calling two bets to showdown with a well beaten hand. You can call a cap on the flop but then need to improve. If for some reason he checks the turn, I'm checking behind then taking a showdown for one bet. Otherwise I'm folding UI to a turn bet.

Re: I hate it when people limp RR (AQo 1/2 party)
 

Fold - you are probably behind and having to call 2 bets to continue isn't profitable.

Re: I hate it when people limp RR (AQo 1/2 party)
 

AA, KK and an unlikely 99 &amp; QQ are ahead of us right now. i think folding here may be a tad weak.

Re: I hate it when people limp RR (AQo 1/2 party)
 

[ QUOTE ]
AA, KK and an unlikely 99 &amp; QQ are ahead of us right now. i think folding here may be a tad weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is 99 unlikely for BB? It's hard to say what might be unlikely for UTG....given the passive read on the opponents, I would tend to think that the limp RR might very well mean the goods.

Given the passive reads, the limp RR (not so important but still a piece of information), and finally BB donking the flop into the preflop 3-better.....I don't think its positive EV to continue.....FOLD.

Re: I hate it when people limp RR (AQo 1/2 party)
 

[ QUOTE ]
AA, KK and an unlikely 99 &amp; QQ are ahead of us right now. i think folding here may be a tad weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've never been at the tables with the limp rr meaning crap hands, they are always in the AA-QQ range. You've got two people interested in this pot so there is no way it is going to be a cheap showdown. I'd call the flop, hoping it wasn't capped and see what happened on the turn, with no real desire to put more than 1 bet in on the turn.

Re: I hate it when people limp RR (AQo 1/2 party)
 

Considering ur reads on UTG+1 I would fold. In my experience people rarely limp-raise QQ-JJ cause as soon as they look at them they're getting scared to flop an ace and lose. Against a trickier player u can't fold cause ub have to worry about AK-AQs, KQs which u beat/split.

Re: I hate it when people limp RR (AQo 1/2 party)
 

12.5:2 = 6.25:1 that you hit a Q,A on turn.

JJ = winning
QQ = screwed
KK = you have 2 outs to Q's, 3 outs to A
AA = you have 2 outs to Q's

[AA,KK]
16.32% equity according to pokerstove.
EV(call)= 16.32%*12.5SB - 83.68%*2SB = +0.3664SB
EV(raise)= 16.32%*12.5SB - 83.68%*3SB = -0.47SB

[QQ-AA]
14.7% equity
EV(call)= 14.7%*12.5SB - 85.3%*2SB = +0.1315SB
EV(raise)= 14.7%*12.5SB - 85.3%*3SB = -0.7215SB

[JJ-AA]
42.2% equity
EV(call)= 42.2%*12.5SB - 57.8%*2SB = +4.12SB
EV(raise)= 42.2%*12.5SB - 57.8%*3SB = +3.54SB

So for every case, raising is definitely out and folding is definitely out. I would call.

Re: I hate it when people limp RR (AQo 1/2 party)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've never been at the tables with the limp rr meaning crap hands, they are always in the AA-QQ range.

[/ QUOTE ]

Without a read , this is usually what it means. But I have seen players L/RR with garbage quite often. And not just LAG types , I saw a 45/3 L/RR utg with 58o just the other day.

Re: I hate it when people limp RR (AQo 1/2 party)
 

Grunch:

I would reraise to get BB out, since you don't want him tagging along, and also, what happened to BB? if you are on the button and then BB should act after you?????

i would reraise against this loose guy, he probably has a queen but not top kickerand you can find out where you are exactly with a reraises while it's cheap, i would put UTG on KK or JJ or TT, but i think probably not KK or AA

Re: I hate it when people limp RR (AQo 1/2 party)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I hate it when people limp RR PF, cause it seems like half the time they have total crap, half the time they have JJ+....

Anyways here's the reads:
UTG+1 is 50/1.5/.7 after about 400 hands. Most of the hands I have on him are from mining, but so far he seems like a typical loose-passive and hasn't done anything tricky or out of line yet.
BB is 19/7/1.9 after about 200 hands. Again most hands from mining, but so far this session, he's played more like a tight passive player than his stats suggest.


Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Dave is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Dave raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 3-bets</font>, Dave calls, BB calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, Dave dies a little inside and then.........???

I suppose you could argue all three options, but one of them has to be best.....I just can't figure out which. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

make it 3. see what happens.

Re: I hate it when people limp RR (AQo 1/2 party)
 

You're getting 6:1 on a call. It's possible that UTG+1 just has a wild hare and is trying to push everybody off the pot; did he just lose/win a big pot or anything?

BB, otoh, is more likely to have a legit hand, prolly 99/66 (his stats look pretty tight-passive to me, at least), but might also be capable of a protection play with a weak queen or strong 6 or 9. If he's smart enough to make the latter play, tho, he's also smart enough to smooth-call the flop and punish you on the turn with one of the former hands.

3-bet. Call a cap, fold the turn UI, even for only one bet. If the flop isn't capped, check the turn through UI and call one on the river. Look these guys up.

Re: I hate it when people limp RR (AQo 1/2 party)
 

After 400 hands, UTG has raised only 1.5% preflop. Here he limps then 3-bets. I don't think he has crap. This play is screaming AA. However, I definitely wouldn't fold. Against most opponent I would 3-bet this, but I just think we are behind so much here I would probably just call down.

Re: I hate it when people limp RR (AQo 1/2 party)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've never been at the tables with the limp rr meaning crap hands, they are always in the AA-QQ range.

[/ QUOTE ]

The ones that reach showdown, sure. But I get limp-RRed quite a bit by players who don't reach showdown, with boards that shouldn't be too scary to somebody with a big pocket pair. Of course, knowing the type of player and the way the table's been playing helps a lot in figuring out what a limp-RR means. Somebody on the small stakes board did some research with PokerTracker to come up with a limp-RR picture:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...&amp;PHPSESSID=

My experience is that limp-RR at microlimits is more often an indication of tilt than a big hand. Knowing the player is obviously pretty important in figuring out which it is.

Re: I hate it when people limp RR (AQo 1/2 party)
 

[ QUOTE ]
12.5:2 = 6.25:1 that you hit a Q,A on turn.

JJ = winning
QQ = screwed
KK = you have 2 outs to Q's, 3 outs to A
AA = you have 2 outs to Q's

[AA,KK]
16.32% equity according to pokerstove.
EV(call)= 16.32%*12.5SB - 83.68%*2SB = +0.3664SB
EV(raise)= 16.32%*12.5SB - 83.68%*3SB = -0.47SB

[QQ-AA]
14.7% equity
EV(call)= 14.7%*12.5SB - 85.3%*2SB = +0.1315SB
EV(raise)= 14.7%*12.5SB - 85.3%*3SB = -0.7215SB

[JJ-AA]
42.2% equity
EV(call)= 42.2%*12.5SB - 57.8%*2SB = +4.12SB
EV(raise)= 42.2%*12.5SB - 57.8%*3SB = +3.54SB

So for every case, raising is definitely out and folding is definitely out. I would call.

[/ QUOTE ]

This doesn't give an accurate picture of the EV. If you hit your "outs" i.e. your A or Q....you have to put in another two big bets to showdown.....and still have a loss against AA. You can't use the equity calculations of Poker Stove (which go to showdown) to compute an EV for the turn.

Re: I hate it when people limp RR (AQo 1/2 party)
 

Just don't fold. I'd make it 3 bets, but coldcalling to see what BB does is a good option as well.

Re: I hate it when people limp RR (AQo 1/2 party)
 

[ QUOTE ]
did he just lose/win a big pot or anything?

[/ QUOTE ]
Not that I remember. He's pretty much just a passive calling type.


[ QUOTE ]

3-bet. Call a cap, fold the turn UI, even for only one bet. If the flop isn't capped, check the turn through UI and call one on the river. Look these guys up.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I like this line the best. It shows the other players we're not going to be f'ed with and lets us know where we're really at if it gets capped and/or we're led into on the turn. After all UTG+1 is really passive and BB is fairly passive. If either one of them is trying to get out of line on the flop, I think 3-betting will get them to chill out.

But...what if we check though the turn and the river goes bet, call (assuming both opponents still around)? Can we over-call with this hand (assuming no scary cards come)?

Re: I hate it when people limp RR (AQo 1/2 party)
 

I fold the flop without much thought. Player with 1.5 PFR limp reraises, I think this is AA/KK like all the time.

Re: I hate it when people limp RR (AQo 1/2 party)
 

3-bet call if capped and fold to a turn bet UI

Re: I hate it when people limp RR (AQo 1/2 party)
 

[ QUOTE ]
But...what if we check though the turn and the river goes bet, call (assuming both opponents still around)? Can we over-call with this hand (assuming no scary cards come)?

[/ QUOTE ]

You have to. The whole point of this line is to get a cheap showdown. I mean, I see your point, if it goes bet, call on the river, you're going to see their cards, regardless, but the reason you're doing it is that one Villan might be good enough to be taking a shot at you on the flop (and presumably would again on the river if the turn checked through) and the other Villan might be bad/mad/nutty enough to be trying to take down a large pot with air.

Re: I hate it when people limp RR (AQo 1/2 party)
 

Yeah, that makes sense. I guess I didn't take UTG+1 likely calling a BB river bet with just about anything.
thanks boz

Re: I hate it when people limp RR (AQo 1/2 party)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Villan might be bad/mad/nutty enough to be trying to take down a large pot with air.

[/ QUOTE ]
Boz is a wise, wise man.

Also, the most common reasons otherwise passive/tight villains LRR, in order based on my observations and those of others:

1. They're on tilt.

2. They're pissed off because they think you raise too much preflop. (Vast majority of times it's a combination of 1+2.)

3. They've got something that beats you.

Re: I hate it when people limp RR (AQo 1/2 party)
 

Even passive players LRR with all sorts of suited crap. I still 3-bet and play it from there.

Re: I hate it when people limp RR (AQo 1/2 party)
 

Does anyone know the rank of the hand that wins the most?...
Its 2 pair, DO NOT LOOSE ALL YOUR MONEY ON TOP PAIR!!! Esp. in limit!! Top pair is not always the winner!!