when to call a habitual pusher
 

Opponent in question is donutboy. He absolutely cannot handle my style and hates me because of it. He sits down and my table and in the first two orbits, fires off all manner of profane tirades and tells me all kinds of things that I never knew about my mother and nonexistent sister.

Anyway, of the first ten non-blind hands that I play against him (he has immediate position on me), I raise seven of them to 56. Of those seven hands, he folds three of them and PUSHES for 2K in the other four! I fold to his reraise all four times.

I choose not to raise my raising standards (as if I do that, he is liable NOT to continue pushing with marginal hands). I feel like if I keep raising with my usual frequency, he will keep making this idiotic move and I will pick him off.

In the hand in question, it folds to me on the button. I raise to 56 with A-6 offsuit. He pushes (now the fifth time out of eight such raises that I have made). BB folds. Do I call or not?

Now when you answer, please remember that it is faulty logic to say that I should wait for a huge hand since he will surely do this at some point when I have AA or KK or whatever. This kind of thought process (passing up small edges for the guarantee of bigger ones later) may be sound in tournament play but is not accurate in cash game play. In a cash game (where one can reload), and as long as one is properly bankrolled for the game, one should never pass up a +EV situation for a zero EV situation (folding).

So with that in mind, should I call the 2K with my A-6 or not? Also, a couple follow up questions: what is the worst pocket pair and the worst unpaired hand that I should make the call in this situation with?

Cheers,
Samo

Re: when to call a habitual pusher
 

is he also pushing ai from your UTG raises with everyone left to act behind?

Re: when to call a habitual pusher
 

The game was six max (sorry I forgot to mention that) - so there are fewer people behind. Of the seven raises that I mentioned, only one was UTG. He did not push that one.

the game was six max
 

As the subject line says, the game was six-max: sorry I forgot to mention that ...

Re: when to call a habitual pusher
 

I seem to remember a player who used to do that stuff to me and others, only he didn't push but just raised to like 600 or 1K. I think his name was punk something [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img].

In answer to your question as stated, I would only call with QQ-AA and AK. But what I would do, especially since he is going to crimp your style more than others, would be to leave the table and either get position on him when a seat opened up, or come back in the same seat with a min buyin and then call a little more liberally to see what he was doing it with. But if I were going to stay there in that situation, then I would raise every other orbit in early position with some absolute garbage I didn't mind folding, and hope he did that [censored] and ran himself into a big hand behind him.

Re: when to call a habitual pusher
 

[ QUOTE ]
This kind of thought process (passing up small edges for the guarantee of bigger ones later) may be sound in tournament play but is not accurate in cash game play.

[/ QUOTE ]

not true in the slightest. if you call him with A6 there he probably wont be making this stupid push anymore so instead of getting your money in as a huge favorite you get your money in with this very marginal equity.

Re: when to call a habitual pusher
 

A9 and 77+ ish.

Re: when to call a habitual pusher
 

This has been happening to me a decent amount at 5/10 this week... I'll open and then an instashove all in, too often for it to be a monster, I've started calling with 66+ and A8+...this seems ok but isn't ideal since you are actually playing into their game taking a coinflip with them, obv. variance/money isn't an issue for you, so you don't mind taking these borderline +ev situations, assuming you don't tilt, but I still don't like it because more often than not I feel my edge should be greater than shoving preflop, so when you do this you are sort of giving them a bigger edge over you, does that make any sense?

Re: when to call a habitual pusher
 

I love the comment about not waiting for a huge hand here; it's very true but I think a lot of high stakes players even miss that point.

If his range of hands is something like: all pockets, all aces, and most face cards (which I'm assuming it is), I would say that the problem with calling with A6 is that you are either a slight favorite or a pretty big dog. Really, your marginal advantage is that you can beat KQ, QJish hands barely, only dominate smaller aces, and are a pretty big dog against bigger aces and pocket pairs between 7s and Ks.

That said, I think A8 is the borderline hand. As said in another post on this thread, call with A9 and better and (I would say) 66 or better. In this case, you are going to be racing a lot of times; however, I think that's not always a bad thing given that A.) you can probably afford it in your roll better than he can and B.) you can always reload and it sounds like you are a more mature/ non-tiltish player. I call with A9, sometimes A8, always 66, sometimes 55, and I establish an image that I am not only aggressive, but also loose, and that if he is going to put in a ridiculous raise, I'm going to gamble with him a fair share of the time.

Re: when to call a habitual pusher
 

This isn't a tourney, and you don't know exactly how much you can lower your range without first seeing a couple showdowns and knowing a little better what he is doing that with. And like I said, I don't stay in that seat and try to coinflip with him or have him make me tighten up more than I want to.

Re: when to call a habitual pusher
 

AZK, I think you make a number of salient points. However, I think that although I feel like my edge is generally bigger over the table than it would be calling with A-6 over some above average hand, I feel you have to look at the hand microscopically not macroscopically. In other words, (and since I am properly bankrolled) my decision should simply be: is it +EV to make this call or not. Passing this up for a higher EV later is shaky I think - especially because I run the (considerable) risk of someone else picking him off and stopping this nonsense before I get to.

You make a very very good point that my own tilt factor should be a big consideration. But I can honestly say that I almost never tilt. I am pretty good about thinking of poker as a long term thing, so I never get too worked up about bad beats. If I make good decisions, I am usually satisfied even if I lose a big pot. (the exception to that might be if I suffer several bad beats in close succession - but we can discuss that another time).

So that being said, I like your A8, 66 requirement.

Re: when to call a habitual pusher
 

[ QUOTE ]
my decision should simply be: is it +EV to make this call or not.

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youre entirely right about this, but my comment is righterer.

result
 

outstanding post aejones! as for me, I thought I could loosen up even more. He had reraised me more than half the time I had opened, which led me to think that his reraising standards could be as weak as pockets, any aces, two broadway cards, medium king, and MAYBE even speculative hands like suited connectors.

I like your, lapokers, and AZK's requirements of around A-8/9 and 66. As for me, this was a real "feel" situation. This guy really hated playing against me and my style and was trying to put a stop to it. I felt that A6 was a favorite over his hand range a little more than half the time - so after taking my entire bank, I decided to make the call.

I was against K-9. Flop was a sick J-J-9. But poetic justice: turn and river were tens.

Re: when to call a habitual pusher
 

This sounds like a pokerstove numbers crunching question and i'm unwilling to do the work [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].....My guess is that he is reraising quite liberally but i would also guess that he's experiencing a better than average run of cards. I doubt he's doing this with complete air.

With that said my guess of +EV calling hands is AT+ and 77+ and possibly KQ. But this really comes down to what range you think he's doing this with. I fold the A-6. Obviously this all comes down to what his hand range is and i'm sure you can make a much better guess at that than I.

I think another great argument is whether or not you should tighten up your raising standards (a little). Obviously with him doing this you're in a fantastic situation but i'm not convinced that it wouldn't be more +EV to tighten up a little temporarily. He's not going to stop hating you just because you tighten up for a little while [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: when to call a habitual pusher
 

Tstone, I think you may be neglecting the fact that if I wait for a better situation, I might lose the opportunity when someone else picks him off.

Re: when to call a habitual pusher
 

BluffThis, it is specifically because it is not a tournament situation and I had not seen any showdowns that I had to make a decision about whether or not it was plus EV. As for leaving the table, I think it would have been a bad idea for three reasons:

(1) I don't want to set a precedent where he (and perhaps others that observe this) can start doing this.

(2) despite the unpleasantness of him playing this way, it is clearly advantageous to have him at my table. While it increases variance dramatically, it also increases EV.

(3) I had run my starting stack of 2K to about 14K at the time and I did not want to lose the inherent advantages that having such a stack provided.

Re: when to call a habitual pusher
 

Aggie, your first paragraph about him probably experiencing a better than average run of cards is a very very good point.

About tightening up, my fear was that if he noticed a perceptible tightening of my opening raising, I thought he might stop playing like this. And as you said, while somewhat irritating and unpleasant, it certainly IS a fantastic situation to be in.

Do you not think that if I noticeably raised my opening standards, he would in turn increase his pushing standards?

Re: result
 

[ QUOTE ]
But poetic justice: turn and river were tens.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm just curious....When this happened, did you type anything into the chatbox, and if so, what? I sure hope you needled him somehow [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: when to call a habitual pusher
 

[ QUOTE ]
About tightening up, my fear was that if he noticed a perceptible tightening of my opening raising, I thought he might stop playing like this. And as you said, while somewhat irritating and unpleasant, it certainly IS a fantastic situation to be in.

Do you not think that if I noticeably raised my opening standards, he would in turn increase his pushing standards?

[/ QUOTE ]

I really have no idea? YOu certainly may be right (probably are)....I just thought it was a good discussion point

Re: result
 

Haha - you are ruining my attempt at portraying myself as a gentleman. Yes indeed - comments about yet another mortgage payment followed!

Also, I started really annoying him by counting out loud every time he rebought. He had a 2K stack and had to rebuy a number of times. Full rebuys twice, but I counted even when he added 50 bucks to get it from 1950 to 2K. I kept saying "there's rebuy #7" etc ...

I had the whole table "lol-ing" at him. Was beautiful! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: when to call a habitual pusher
 

It is a good discussion point. I think that if I could tighten my standards without him adjusting his, it would be ideal. But it would be really bad to lose him as a customer and while I am not certain if he would have slowed down, I didn't want to take the risk.

Re: result
 

Do you think this is the best way to keep him around? Or keep him playing comparably?
Edit: [referring to your chat]

in the future
 

Although correct in this case, I think my A-6 call might have been a little on the thin side. I think if the identical situation were magically to present itself in the future, I would call with 66 and up for pairs - and A8, maybe A7. KQ probably, KJ unlikely.

Re: result
 

I think that if I don't pounce on a plus EV situation soon, someone else at the table will - after which he may stop doing this ...

Re: result
 

[ QUOTE ]
Edit: [referring to your chat]

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: result
 

bluff - i'm not talking about tourney vs cash. obv. ev is ev. my point being that if my edge is greater than A6o (i call) vs. his KJ, I probably shouldn't make this call regularly since if he gets "lucky", I now have to reload, I don't cover him, and he will probably give away my stack quicker to others before I have a chance to get it back. Even if I was better than EVERYONE at the table (which I'm not) it's still me in a race with 4 other players...it just doesn't seem optimal, obv. I have no numbers to back up my claims, i also happen to tilt pretty hard so it's probably smarter for me not to run and gun like this with fish.

Re: result
 

that is a good point: I just couldn't resist. Not plus EV I am afraid ...

Re: result
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But poetic justice: turn and river were tens.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm just curious....When this happened, did you type anything into the chatbox, and if so, what? I sure hope you needled him somehow [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

THIS IS HIGHLY FROWNED UPON BY THIS FORUM

Re: result
 

AZK, I had almost 14K, so I could have doubled him up a couple of times and still covered him. But if I had doubled him up, I am unsure if he would push with a 4K stack. ... I do agree that if you are prone to tilt, you should not make these kind of calls. But if you can call, lose a huge pot, and keep playing your game (in which you clearly have an edge over most), I think it is better to make the thin calls if you think they are right. ... That being said, I think it is very astute and mature to consider your propensity to tilt when considering making these thin calls.

Re: result
 

[ QUOTE ]
He sits down and my table and in the first two orbits, fires off all manner of profane tirades and tells me all kinds of things that I never knew about my mother and nonexistent sister.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
THIS IS HIGHLY FROWNED UPON BY THIS FORUM

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Screw that....I'm all for being a gentleman, not crying about beats, not berating fish, etc.....But as soon as somebody starts attacking me personally it's all fair game.

Re: result
 

That is my philosophy too. I am always courteous and friendly to everyone I play with. But if someone starts attacking me personally for no reason (or even if they unleash on someone else for no reason), I'll dish it out with the best of 'em. ... And I'll needle instead of swear and scream - which usually gets 'em worse! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: result
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He sits down and my table and in the first two orbits, fires off all manner of profane tirades and tells me all kinds of things that I never knew about my mother and nonexistent sister.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
THIS IS HIGHLY FROWNED UPON BY THIS FORUM

[/ QUOTE ]

Screw that....I'm all for being a gentleman, not crying about beats, not berating fish, etc.....But as soon as somebody starts attacking me personally it's all fair game.

[/ QUOTE ]

The difference is though, that he is giving you his money. If somebody wants to give me their money, they call call me all sorts of names. So I usually try and stay away from that kind of stuff, unless I think there is a good chance it will make my opponent play worse, or play for longer because he has a vendetta with me.

Re: when to call a habitual pusher
 

If he loses his money he may leave (or at least start playing normal). If he doubles up it's fairly likely he will not want to continue pushing with a double-sized stack. So you have to consider that you're probably only getting one shot at this. So I would treat this more carefully than I would against a maniac who I am certain will continue spewing until broke. As for A6o, it should be pretty easy to get a rough idea of your equity using PokerStove, but I'd be pretty surprised if there is much of any value in calling with it. Against someone pushing with the top 50% of their hands I am guessing you'd need about ATo+/77+ to call.

Re: result
 

[ QUOTE ]
unless I think there is a good chance it will make my opponent play worse, or play for longer because he has a vendetta with me.

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It's hard to get in the head of somebody like this and know what they're thinking but i think this is usually the case.

You're probably right that it's better to just be the bigger man and not say anything but sometimes i struggle to be the bigger man...

Re: when to call a habitual pusher
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am guessing you'd need about ATo+/77+ to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Damn, great minds think alike [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: when to call a habitual pusher
 

A6o is pushing it, but could maybe be plausible if you think his range is wide enough. Running some numbers through pokerstove:

equity vs "top 25%" of hands:
equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 43.5299 % 40.51% 03.02% { A6o }
Hand 2: 56.4701 % 53.45% 03.02% { 66+, A2s+, K6s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, A7o+, K9o+, QTo+, JTo }


equity vs top 50%
Hand 1: 51.1760 % 47.92% 03.25% { A6o }
Hand 2: 48.8240 % 45.57% 03.25% { 33+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J4s+, T6s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, A2o+, K5o+, Q7o+, J7o+, T7o+, 98o }

You're about 58% vs a random hand here, but he seems pretty much guaranteed to be (slightly) better than random. Vs the top 75% of hands you're around 55%. If you both start with exactly $2000, then you're calling about $1950 with $2075 already in the pot. This needs a little under 49% equity to show profit, which is about your equity vs the "top 40%" range in pokerstove (44+, A2s+, K2s+, Q4s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A3o+, K7o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T9o).

If we decide that 40% range sounds right, then you're at 47% equity with 22, 49% with 44, 53% with 66 amd 58% with 88. As far as unpaired hands go, ATo gives you that same 58%. K9s/KTo/QJs are all in the 49%-50% range.

Granted, none of these ranges are going to match his standards exactly, but I hope the numbers are still of some use. I'd imagine you're not just looking for the worst hand than can profitably call here, as the results of a hand where you call are going to have some effect on his future play.

edit - vs a range of any pair and any two broadway cards, you're just under 42%. A6o is in trouble against a lot of the hands it seems like he might be pushing here.

Re: when to call a habitual pusher
 

Calling with A6o is exactly what you don't want to do. Don't drag yourself down to his level. I'd call with JJ-AA and AK. I don't agree that your'e giving up an edge laying down lots of times because it's compensated by when you get one of the above hands and take his roll.

Re: when to call a habitual pusher
 

i havent read responses, but i would call A9-T, 77+.

if he doubles up, will he continue to play this way? if he will, then i would be more inclined to call. if he wont, then i would be less inclined. if he loses his stack, how does he react?

Re: when to call a habitual pusher
 

how about calling with KKF's range, and add KQ? it dominates him a lot, and if we're behind, we're hardly ever dominated, and it's a 60-40

Re: when to call a habitual pusher
 

I havnt read most of the thread... but one thing you said was wrong sam... You shouldnt take a decision just because it is the most +EV. You should think through his psycology a little bit, and make some folds which are -EV. I know your bankrolled for this game... however think about it this way. If you call his shove and he loses he is much more prone to tilt... if you call and he wins he will very often start playing sane (at least imo and i've had this happen to me on stars a lot). Personally when i have an interesting dynamic w/ some1 i will occasionally pass up slight +EV spots if i think it will help me tilt them or w/e. This rarely applies to cash games... however this seems to be one of the times that it does. I'd call AJ+, 88+ or something along those lines... and i think that folding 77 would be throwing away perhaps 100$ or so in EV... however there are a few things to consider.

1) he may have gotten a few good hands in a row (and perhaps isnt pushing the top 3/7 of his range but instead the top 5%)

2) calling and winning is very important as it might tilt him

3) A lot of hands are either slightly ahead of his range... or way behind it... so u need to be right that this player is in fact off the hook a lot more often than your wrong. If you said he shoved 30/70 hands i'd call ~55+, A9+, A7s+, KJ+ or something along those lines.


Imo A6 is a fold here