blind defense, ace on turn...
 

Party Poker 20/40 Hold'em (6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero

Villain is 34/19/1.8/36 over 13388 hands. Gimme a plan for the turn and a plan (if you see the river) for a K and a blank.

Krishan

Re: blind defense, ace on turn...
 

The guy is a LAG.

Bet the turn, but fold to a raise.

I think check/calling any river is a good plan. You avoid being pushed off your hand by a tricky river-raise-bluff. PLus, this guy is aggro enough to bluff at the pot when checked to. Plus, I'm not sure what worse hand calls a river bet from you here.


What about 3-betting this guy preflop? (Depending on meta-game considerations, this may be a good option).


Adam

Re: blind defense, ace on turn...
 

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The guy is a LAG.

Bet the turn, but fold to a raise.

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Does this strike you as odd at all?

Krishan

Re: blind defense, ace on turn...
 

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The guy is a LAG.

Bet the turn, but fold to a raise.

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Does this strike you as odd at all?

Krishan

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I know what you mean, and I thought about that when writng the post.

I thought about this some more and think the following line is better:

Bet the turn, if raised, call the turn raise. Then check the river. If he bets the river, fold.


What do you think?


Adam

Re: blind defense, ace on turn...
 

i probably check/call turn and blank river. let him bluff, don't have any really tough decisions... i think i'd rather see a showdown for a guaranteed 2 bbs (but risking him taking a free card occasionally) than have to worry about folding the best hand, or putting in 3 bbs to showdown, or 2 bbs and not get a showdown. occasionally you can find a fold on the river depending on what happens and the player, which is even more appealing. although there probably aren't many lags that fit this profile

i think c/r a rivered king is definitely the way to go

Re: blind defense, ace on turn...
 

i'd take that line sometimes too

Re: blind defense, ace on turn...
 

I check/call twice and checkraise the river if I improve. I cannot overstate how much I hate bet/folding this turn. LAG 101 chapter 1 page 1 says "people are scared of aces, you should pretend like you have one as often as possible"

-DeathDonkey

Re: blind defense, ace on turn...
 

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I cannot overstate how much I hate bet/folding this turn.

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You and me both - I did that for awhile until I realized the money it cost me.

Jeff

Re: blind defense, ace on turn...
 

Are there hands people are check/folding on the turn?

Taking a c/c c/c line sounds good in theory and all, but isn't it pretty obvious you're going to showdown? I've only played 15K hands above 5/10, but a reasonable opponent is going to be putting me on a hand I'm not folding when I check there. I can't imagine that it won't be more obvious to a reasonable 20/40 opponent

Re: blind defense, ace on turn...
 

Blind:

Vs this player, I tend to check call the turn. My reasoning for what it is worth: It is an excellent bluff card for this player, especially if you check. Could be if you bet as well... and if you do not know if you should be folding to a raise or not, i'd definitely not bet. Check calling can allow you to suck out some when you are actually behind. I dont know how it is at 20/40, but somtimes at my limits a player will take a stab on this turn representing an ace, but when you call he gives up and checks behind on the river when he doesnt improve... I dont know if they are that easy at 20/40.

I assuming I check call and improve I go for the checkraise. If you induced a bluff with your turn check, and then donk the river... I think he folds alot here and if he raises a 3bet maybe too tuff to go for any way. I think I like going for the cr hoping he fires another barrell with nothing, or calls with his decent hands, or you dont get capped vs a monster.

Re: blind defense, ace on turn...
 

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The guy is a LAG.

Bet the turn, but fold to a raise.

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Does this strike you as odd at all?

Krishan

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I know what you mean, and I thought about that when writng the post.

I thought about this some more and think the following line is better:

Bet the turn, if raised, call the turn raise. Then check the river. If he bets the river, fold.


What do you think?


Adam

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I don't like it, I think against a true LAG you will get raised a very high percentage of the time on the turn. That's what LAGs do. Why put in two bets and not get to showdown when you can put in the same amount and see one? Checking has a good chance to induce a bluff from a LAG as well. I really think that c/c is the optimal line here.
I will say that against some passive opponents, bet/fold is probably more correct.

Re: blind defense, ace on turn...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

The guy is a LAG.

Bet the turn, but fold to a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does this strike you as odd at all?

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]


I know what you mean, and I thought about that when writng the post.

I thought about this some more and think the following line is better:

Bet the turn, if raised, call the turn raise. Then check the river. If he bets the river, fold.


What do you think?


Adam

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like it, I think against a true LAG you will get raised a very high percentage of the time on the turn. That's what LAGs do. Why put in two bets and not get to showdown when you can put in the same amount and see one? Checking has a good chance to induce a bluff from a LAG as well. I really think that c/c is the optimal line here.
I will say that against some passive opponents, bet/fold is probably more correct.

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The point is we *are* only still putting in 2 bets to see a showdown.

If he's bluffing, and raises my turn bet - GREAT. After I call his turn raise, he'll rarely have the balls to pull the trigger again on the river with a total bluff.

In other words, if he bets the river after raising the turn, he most likely has us beat. For those times that he's raising the turn for a free showdown, our line still works, and still only costs us two bets.

Now, if we just let the guy bluff, and we plan to check/call the turn and river ... there's no guarantee he'll bet the river. Therefore, villain is allowed to play more perfectly, so to speak. He's just got out of having to pay two bets for a showdown with an inferior hand.


Adam

Re: blind defense, ace on turn...
 

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If he's bluffing, and raises my turn bet - GREAT. After I call his turn raise, he'll rarely have the balls to pull the trigger again on the river with a total bluff.


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I am really interested to know if other people think this is true. My expectation would be that someone like him who loves to bet and bluff and raise and fire and shoot at pots will keep the ball rolling on the river regardless. However, I suck at poker, so I am usually wrong in my imaginings.

Guy.

Re: blind defense, ace on turn...
 

-IMO, this type of player would more often than not keep the ball rolling. Just my opinion.

Re: blind defense, ace on turn...
 

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If he's bluffing, and raises my turn bet - GREAT. After I call his turn raise, he'll rarely have the balls to pull the trigger again on the river with a total bluff.


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I am really interested to know if other people think this is true.

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Nope. If I raised this turn as a bluff, I would bet the river 100% of the time. (Unless I know the BB is likely to lead the turn with a naked 6 but check-call his pairs.)

As for the OP's question. Since there's the straight draw out there, a lot of LAG's will auto-bet any 2 just trying to charge the naked 6's. That's an argument for check-calling.

Nonetheless, if I have a weak image, I will bet-calldown this turn against a LAG expecting to induce him to bluff far more than he should.

Edit - bet-fold is BY FAR THE WORST CHOICE. Almost every hand Villain bluffs with is really a ~6-out semi-bluff, so he only needs you to fold 15% of the time to make a profit. If you're folding hands as strong as K7, it's not even close---Villain should raise any two and make a huge profit.

Re: blind defense, ace on turn...
 

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Party Poker 20/40 Hold'em (6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero

Villain is 34/19/1.8/36 over 13388 hands. Gimme a plan for the turn and a plan (if you see the river) for a K and a blank.

Krishan

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For me its standard to check call the turn and river in those kind of situations. I try for a check raise on the river if i improve cause he will not call a river bet without an A but he will call the check raise with an A. Having said that i wish to add that when i have a low TP (like a 7 in this example) i prefer to bet call the turn and check fold to a river bet. If my pair is 8 or better (which is usually cause i dont defend with less than K7s in BB) i take the first line. Also i decide which to take depending on the specific player (particularly his "att to steal" and "bet river" stats).

Re: blind defense, ace on turn...
 

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Are there hands people are check/folding on the turn?

Taking a c/c c/c line sounds good in theory and all, but isn't it pretty obvious you're going to showdown? I've only played 15K hands above 5/10, but a reasonable opponent is going to be putting me on a hand I'm not folding when I check there. I can't imagine that it won't be more obvious to a reasonable 20/40 opponent

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The board is full of straight draws in the blind zone. The BB semibluff checkraising the flop and checking when the ace hits looks extremely natural to me. Villain gives free cards at his peril.

Expect Button to protection bet almost any hand he can show. It's very important for (e.g.) KJ to represent that Hero's 10-out gutshot is actually only a 4-outer in hopes it might fold.

Expect Button to bluff many of the hands he cannot show. Actually it's not exactly a bluff. Hands like J9 are taking two bites at the apple. Maybe you'll fold and maybe they can actually win the free showdown versus some busted draw.

Bottom line: why risk an extremely unpleasant raise when Villain will usually bet your hand for you? Worst case he takes a free card and steals 3-6 outs instead of you folding him out. Much more often you either save a bet or get the 3-6 outer to take a swipe at you.

Having checkcalled, you should lead the river if you hit. Otherwise I checkcall again unless I feel I can convincingly represent to the right opponent that I rivered my straight.

Re: blind defense, ace on turn...
 

I bet that is for sure, whether i fold to a raise or calldown depends on how i view the opponent.

Re: blind defense, ace on turn...
 

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I check/call twice and checkraise the river if I improve. I cannot overstate how much I hate bet/folding this turn. LAG 101 chapter 1 page 1 says "people are scared of aces, you should pretend like you have one as often as possible"

-DeathDonkey

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i love this.

Re: blind defense, ace on turn...
 

I think that the Ace is especially bluffable because it's very unlikely hero happens to have one, after raising the flop (and not 3-betting preflop).

Re: blind defense, ace on turn...
 

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The guy is a LAG.

Bet the turn, but fold to a raise.

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Does this strike you as odd at all?

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]


I know what you mean, and I thought about that when writng the post.

I thought about this some more and think the following line is better:

Bet the turn, if raised, call the turn raise. Then check the river. If he bets the river, fold.


[/ QUOTE ]

I've got 2nd pair in a blind battle, I'd like to see showdown for 2BB at this point, but make sure and avoid getting raised if I'm behind, but get some value if I'm ahead.

I'm tempted to check/call the turn. The ace is a great bluff card, so we might extract a bluff there. Then donk the river because I want a call from a worse hand suspicious about my river donk or confuse a better hand (such as a weak ace) into just calling.

This way I see showdown for 2 bets, I'm letting the LAG bluff the turn or only get in a 1BB value bet if he's ahead, and I'm donking with a blocking/value bet on the river.

If he raises the river, I can fold.

Re: blind defense, ace on turn...
 

I don't know why I keep posting these hands.

Someone always suggests bet/fold because it's the standard line. Then someone points out that villain is aggro and we don't want to give him a profitable bluffing opportunity. The we all go back and forth between

check/call, check/call
check/call, check/fold
bet/call, check/fold

And usually late in the game, Nate steps in and says bet/fold is indeed the best play and we are all left to wonder if he doesn't have a good grasp of the metagame or whether 2+2 strategy inbreeding has left us all weak on the turn. (I'm using Nate as a generic example of a high stakes player we all respect)

And the truth is without a REALLY detailed read it's a damn tough spot to be in. And these spots come up all the time where you play back on the flop and the turn puts 3-flush or an A or a K or the 3rd broadway.

And I'd really like to know the right play one day.

I picked check/call, check/fold. River came a K and I check raised and he paid off. I didn't look at his cards but I assume he had an ace.

Krishan

Re: blind defense, ace on turn...
 

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And the truth is without a REALLY detailed read it's a damn tough spot to be in.

And I'd really like to know the right play one day.


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I'm in the same boat. My WTSD% has always been low and so I'm trying to take these types of hands and see showdown as cheaply, but not passively. Against aggro players I've been taking the line: check/call, [bet/fold or check/call] Against passive players I've been taking the line: bet/fold, [bet/fold or check/call]. I vary the river line somewhat randomly just to avoid someone catching on. Often my randomizer is if first card in my hand is black, I push, red, I play passive. Adjusted though depending on the board coloring.

I really don't like bet/fold against aggro players because the pot is usually 3-4BB and if they simply raised me every single turn they'd profit. Plus, the more I fold, the more they take shots at me. I'm already a tight player, I don't want them thinking I'm also weak.

Re: blind defense, ace on turn...
 

Well, bet folding is truly awful.

Re: blind defense, ace on turn...
 

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Well, bet folding is truly awful.

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I don't know why bet-folding the turn has even entered the discussion.

It's either bet-call-decide or check-call-decide.