Resolution of the Stars investigation.
 

I wanted to start this new thread, because the other one had gotten quite unwieldy, surpassing in 3 days even my most popular thread to date, the ZeeJustin photo mod project. I also thought the very important developments I am going to discuss deserved their own thread.

Wow -- big, big, big news. First, the Cliff's Notes version of the events. My mother talked to a Stars executive this afternoon. After launching a full investigation that reached the very, very upper echelons of Stars management (and I do mean the real head honchos), it was discovered that Jeff had made an error in his finding that my mom had been using a bot. Both Jeff and Lee have written emails to my mother acknowledging the mistake and apologizing with both humility and extraordinary class. Jeff also apologized for the aggressive and sometimes stubborn tone that he used in his emails. I want to state up front that they really did handle this 'mea culpa' with extraordinary professionalism and class.

So where do we go from here? What I have done is written a very politely worded email to Lee (which I have pasted below) asking him to come here and address these issues. By the way, let there be no doubt how much clout 2+2 has in online poker -- Stars' management was already well aware of the monster thread without my mother saying anything about it. There is no doubt that everybody's contributions there contributed significantly to it being escalated to the level that it was so quickly, so I thank all those who contributed, and those who endorsed my integrity, even while others were assailing it. Anyway, as you can read at the very bottom of my email to Lee -- I think the real issue of concern here is obviously NOT getting a 55-year old woman's Stars account re-opened, but the implications for the rest of us, several of whom derive substantial income from online poker. I wanted to write here all about the dangers associated with the trust we put in the security of our funds at even the most well-reputed online sites, but I am positive that no matter how eloquently I addressed the subject, I could not produce a more thoughtful and piercing analysis than that provided by my mom's email to me in this post , so I will not try to "one-up" her. If anything positive can come from this on a broader scale, I hope it's a re-examination and strengthening of any and all security measures by Stars and other sites alike.

That brings me, I think, to the conclusion of this matter. All I can do now, I guess, is sit back and wait with the rest of you for someone at Stars to address the issue here, if they so choose. This has been a whirlwind few days for me (and my mother), and I hope it has been a learning experience for anyone who chose to follow along.

<font color="blue">
Dear Lee --

Wow, what a day -- my mother just called me and brought me up to date on everything, and even forwarded me the very kind emails you and Jeff wrote to her. I am glad that everthing was resolved, and that we got to the truth of the matter. As you know from my previous emails to you, I never hesitated even to put my own reputation on the line regarding this matter, because I have known this woman my entire life and her integrity and ethics are beyond reproach.

Now on to the reason I now write you -- as I think you might be aware already, I started (and have been continuously contributing to) a thread on 2+2. Here is the link:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...0&amp;fpart=all

I wanted to write you because I do not think that the most recent 2 emails sent to my mother need to be posted in the thread -- despite this situation being handled less than perfectly, I still recognize that both you and Jeff are on "our side". I told my mom many times throughout this ordeal that even though Jeff's replies were written rather condescendingly, it was still somewhat refreshing that she was getting cogent, quick replies (something she would never get from Party or any other site). I am not out to embarrass anyone, especially two of the sharpest and most conscientious guys in this industry. The only reason I posted a few of Jeff's earlier emails was because my own credibility had been called into serious question in the thread and I needed to salvage the goodwill that I had built up there in my 2 years of participating in 2+2 discussions, something I'd like to continue doing.

So at the end of the day, what I'm asking is if you would kindly post in that thread to let people know the resolution of this matter, and what measures, if any, are being taken to improve security at Stars as a result of this incident. I know you read and post at 2+2 every once in a while, and think that this situation calls for a Stars comment. I have taken an awful lot of abuse for suspicion of a) fabricating the entire story and b) concealing some other immoral activity, either on my mom's part or my own. An explanation from you / Stars would go a long way toward both acknowledging my version of the events, and addressing the real issue here.

The real issue, of course, is not a 55-year old mom's ultimate vindication and ability to continue playing very low limit hold'em games. But rather it's the implications for serious players like myself who play high stakes poker at Stars, and those who post on the 2+2 boards, many of whom even make their living from online poker. I'm not exaggerating when I say that it scares us that one day we may find ourselves on the receiving end of a security investigation without having done anything wrong, and have a poker site act as judge, jury, and executioner, the only reason for which being an investigations team who has misinterpreted data and steadfastly refuses to re-examine it. In short, it's not this issue in isolation that calls for a response, but rather the broader implications for us, your loyal player base.

Thanks for listening.
Very sincerely,
</font>

*

Edit/MH: Link to original thread.

Re: Resolution of the Stars investigation.
 

Wow, good letter. Hope to hear something and glad it all got worked out [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Resolution of the Stars investigation.
 

Very nice teddy.

[censored] the haters who didnt believe you the whole time. Especially granny :P

Re: Resolution of the Stars investigation.
 

You rock.

Re: Resolution of the Stars investigation.
 

Once Granny hears a poker site actually made and admitted a mistake his universe will come crashing down at an alarming rate.

Re: Resolution of the Stars investigation.
 

VNH

Re: Resolution of the Stars investigation.
 

I'm impressed.

With teddy for his handeling of the issue and the bunch of morons accusing him of lying.

With stars for admitting their error and resolving it.
Everyone makes mistakes....it's when they can't admit it I have a problem with it.

And with teddys mom of course for her multitabling skills and marathon sessions.

Re: Resolution of the Stars investigation.
 

[ QUOTE ]
and marathon sessions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Brilliant! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Resolution of the Stars investigation.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I told my mom many times throughout this ordeal that even though Jeff's replies were written rather condescendingly, it was still somewhat refreshing that she was getting cogent, quick replies (something she would never get from Party or any other site). I am not out to embarrass anyone, especially two of the sharpest and most conscientious guys in this industry.

[/ QUOTE ]

well done for getting a favourable resolution to the situation and also a well done to all here(im obviously excluding myself) for posting and making Stars sit up and take notice.

my only pain with this now is Jeff - while it is 100% true that you or your mom wouldnt have received any kind of readable replies from Party, i dont feel the point is to compare and contrast Stars and Party......if they only try to improve on the CS that Party offers, it is a very poor state of affairs.

also, while i cannot and would not try to belittle either Jeff or Lee, stating that they are two of the sharpest and most conscientious guys in the industry may be an exaggeration.......one was too stubborn and pig headed to admit that perhaps he made a mistake and the other was willing to take his word on it.

AND, why is it that Stars seem unwilling to listen to individual complaints about a situation but they will go to the highest levels when there is a massive long thread in 2+2 about it? this is the second time in a few short months that they have only acted once the zoo got their knickers in a twist bout something.....to me, this is not good enough - they are either a market leader or they are not.

again, well done on clearing both your own and your mothers names....now go visit her more often [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Resolution of the Stars investigation.
 

Well done Teddy, in so many ways.

Skipping further congratulations, there's still some meat to this issue:


[ QUOTE ]
it was discovered that Jeff had made an error in his finding that my mom had been using a bot.

[/ QUOTE ]


1) I presume (but please confirm?) that your mother did NOT play continuously for 43 hours. If so, how could Jeff make such an asinine mistake? And then, how could he continue to make it when asked to check? Surely they have a software program that reports on total playing time! (step 1 of "Bot Detection 101").

2) What procedures are Stars going to put in place to prevent repeats of this balls-up?

3) In particular, is there going to be an appeals process (which will NOT have Jeff in the loop)?

4) Is there a job vacancy opening up at Stars? What are the stock options like?

5) Which 2+2 male member is going to be the first to take your mum a bottle of champagne?


Well done Teddy,
and poorly done Stars.

Re: Resolution of the Stars investigation.
 

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
it was discovered that Jeff had made an error in his finding that my mom had been using a bot.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) I presume (but please confirm?) that your mother did NOT play continuously for 43 hours. If so, how could Jeff make such an asinine mistake? And then, how could he continue to make it when asked to check? Surely they have a software program that reports on total playing time! (step 1 of "Bot Detection 101").

2) What procedures are Stars going to put in place to prevent repeats of this balls-up?

3) In particular, is there going to be an appeals process (which will NOT have Jeff in the loop)?

4) Is there a job vacancy opening up at Stars? What are the stock options like?

5) Which 2+2 male member is going to be the first to take your mum a bottle of champagne?


Well done Teddy,
and poorly done Stars.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) 100% correct. My mother's account was NOT active for 43 straight hours. Jeff's email said that the security measure they had in place initially identified that time period as having been 43 straight hours, and he simply made a mistake when he investigated in more detail.

2) I defer to Lee on this.

3) I defer to Lee.

4) No ideas here.

5) I have let her know that she is a minor internet celebrity, and that several posters believe her to be "hot", which she laughed heartily at.

Re: Resolution of the Stars investigation.
 

[ QUOTE ]


1) I presume (but please confirm?) that your mother did NOT play continuously for 43 hours. If so, how could Jeff make such an asinine mistake? And then, how could he continue to make it when asked to check? Surely they have a software program that reports on total playing time! (step 1 of "Bot Detection 101").

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, Sandra, the mystery does indeed continue and the plot thickens.

Re: Resolution of the Stars investigation.
 

I am just wondering how many of the jackasses that questioned your integrity will have the class to come back and apologize. Very few I would guess, as most of them didn't have much class to begin with.

Re: Resolution of the Stars investigation.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Very nice teddy.

[censored] the haters who didnt believe you the whole time. Especially granny :P

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Resolution of the Stars investigation.
 

i still think teddy's mom is an international super criminal.

Re: Resolution of the Stars investigation.
 

[ QUOTE ]
1) 100% correct. My mother's account was NOT active for 43 straight hours. Jeff's email said that the security measure they had in place initially identified that time period as having been 43 straight hours, and he simply made a mistake when he investigated in more detail.

[/ QUOTE ]

6) Please don't tell me that the ONLY evidence they had against your mum was that she played for 43 straight hours (they thought)?

That alone was enough to get her account closed? Was enough to get Jeff bragging about what an incredible technical genius he is, and how sophisticated Stars' highly secret, state of the art, bot detection algorithms are?

Please don't tell me that....

Re: Resolution of the Stars investigation.
 

Why don't you post the letters from Lee &amp; Jeff. Or did they ask to be kept private?

Re: Resolution of the Stars investigation.
 

[ QUOTE ]
1) 100% correct. My mother's account was NOT active for 43 straight hours. Jeff's email said that the security measure they had in place initially identified that time period as having been 43 straight hours, and he simply made a mistake when he investigated in more detail.

[/ QUOTE ]

nice to see that he is indeed "smart" enough to differentiate table-hours and real-time hours but not "smart" enough to investigate in more detail before sending condascending emails to customers.



this is starting to smell like a Nick Leeson episode

Re: Resolution of the Stars investigation.
 

[ QUOTE ]
...5) Which 2+2 male member...

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure that was the best way to word that. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Resolution of the Stars investigation.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure that was the best way to word that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unintentionally, but I think it was the perfect way to word it.

Re: Resolution of the Stars investigation.
 

This was all very believable... until it was resolved.

[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] j/k

oh how many real bot users just emailed Lee saying they were incorrectly banned you think?

Re: Resolution of the Stars investigation.
 

Good work, Teddy.

I admit, I had my doubts, mainly because I couldn't imagine Stars making such a big mistake.

Thank you for taking the time to set all this straight.

You've done a service to everyone who has a bankroll online, and to everyone who wants to see online poker succeed.

Thanks.

Re: Resolution of the Stars investigation.
 

Excellent news. Except for the part where I won't have to check out her computer now.

Re: Resolution of the Stars investigation.
 

Good stuff, Teddy and I am glad to hear this has been resolved. I think that the last paragraph of your letter to Lee Jones goes to the heart of why this issue was so important. That Stars could make such an egregious error and then fail to rectify it quickly is very frightening.

I hope that Lee Jones acts on your suggestion and comes here to offer us an explanation on why what appears to have been a simple error in interpreting the computer record needed to be escalated to the highest levels at Poker Stars to be corrected. To my mind, that is simply horrendous.

Again, congrats to your and your mom for vindication.

Re: Resolution of the Stars investigation.
 

Thanks much for sticking with this, Teddy.

Re: Resolution of the Stars investigation.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Excellent news. Except for the part where I won't have to check out her computer now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice!

Re: Resolution of the Stars investigation.
 

I like to commend you once more Teddy for the polite and intelligent way you've handled all communication in this matter. Although the influence of the Zoo has probably helped you a lot, your way of approaching people also makes them more susceptible (sp?) to your arguments and more willing to take an extra step for you.

Re: Resolution of the Stars investigation. *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by Mike Haven

Re: Resolution of the Stars investigation.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks much for sticking with this, Teddy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Now for some pictures of your mom please ...

Re: Resolution of the Stars investigation.
 

wow, would never have bet stars incorrectly concluded she played 43 st8 hours. Like you said, that was the deal breaker.

Congrats on getting it resolved.

Re: Resolution of the Stars investigation.
 

[ QUOTE ]
one was too stubborn and pig headed to admit that perhaps he made a mistake and the other was willing to take his word on it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I'm sure Lee can't take time off whatever it is he does to double check every single complaint Stars gets about customer mistreatment, especially for a nano-limit player. I don't think there is anything Lee could have done better here. Obviously Stars deals with issues similar to this on a regular basis. There are people in charge of these issues. It just happened that one of those people made a mistake. You can't really blame Lee for that.


[ QUOTE ]
AND, why is it that Stars seem unwilling to listen to individual complaints about a situation but they will go to the highest levels when there is a massive long thread in 2+2 about it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Again this is the same as above. I doubt there is a check system in place at stars where decisions are run through a number of people before coming to action. This just wouldn't be practical. It seems one person made a mistake on a nano-limit account. Unfortunately that one decision-maker seems to have had some clout in whatever department he was in. That kind of screws the account holder.

Luckily it was someone associated with 2P2. I don't think there would have been any other way that this would have been re-evaluated without the 2p2 community getting thier panties in a twist. It simply takes the issue from one nano-limit account and makes it an issue for several accounts accross many limits. Obviously Stars will have to address the issue with more scrutiny. It is not reasonable to ask Stars to take the same level of scrutiny with every issue that they deal with. Again that is impractical.

In the end it was resolved and handled correctly. Pat on the back to Teddy and the 2p2 community for bringing it to Stars' attention. Now they can put measures into place that will prevent it from happening again.

Re: Resolution of the Stars investigation.
 

no, had it been someone else they woulda created an acct here to complain and we would have all replied that he/she should stop cheating and they wont get banned. You know thats the truth

Re: Resolution of the Stars investigation.
 

I was one of those in the other thread who made a couple references to Teddy either perpetrating an elaborate joke or being in fact guilty. Mostly I thought it was 95% joke and 5% guilty, because I didn't really see how this could be true. What made me believe that it could be was Wheel Gunner's proposed explanation that a recreational player multitabling might just act as the windows popped up, instead of the way we in these forums do with constantly using check box actions in advance so we can concentrate on the hands we are really playing and have money invested in. Again, I really thought all this was an elaborate prank, but the old saying truth is stranger than fiction seems to apply here.

But all this does say something about stars, and other sites as well. They are so paranoid about bots they can go overboard, but regarding human player collusion, then as I posted in my earlier thread Poker Stars And Game Integrity - The Emperor With No Clothes , and in which Lee declined to respond, there are so many inadequately addressed issues regarding game integrity issues. Stars is not of course the only site with these deficiencies, but as the one who has over time constantly held themselves out as doing the utmost to insure game integrity, then it is only fair we hold them to a higher standard.

Many of us here, including myself, really do hold Lee in high regard both for his own personal integrity, and for his and his site's willingness to come here and address issues, which party has said they would but instead has shown themselves to be a liar for not doing so. But Lee doesn't own the site, and he has superiors to answer to. I hope that they will learn from this episode and not only come here and address it, but also the other issues in the thread linked above. And that they have the guts to say they haven't been doing enough with human collusion/cheating, and have been doing too much or taking the wrong actions regarding bots.

But all of this presuposes the management of stars still cares about the longterm, and isn't just coasting until they can find a buyer for the company. Most of us really want stars to succeed longterm because of Lee and other things, and also because they are the most likely to provide a competitive counterweight to the market leader who doesn't give a [censored] about the business of the portion of its customers who post here. So we will just have to see what happens, but my gut says stars will be bought by a company that links it to a sportbook and casino to try to draw money out of poker into -EV gambling like the others. In that case, there will be no reason at all to favor stars over any other site.

So again, assuming still as seems likely this isn't in fact the most elaborate joke perpetrated on this site, then my hat is off to Teddy for his persistence and handling of this matter, and I'm sorry to have insinuated even a 5% chance of his being guilty.

Re: Resolution of the Stars investigation.
 

The whole "I bet Teddy's mom is hot" stuff is funny and all, but you are taking this too far. But when you say crap like this you are really being a major ass. No wonder he doesn't want his mom to see this forum -- idiots like you.

Re: Resolution of the Stars investigation.
 

i hope lee comes here and explains why this error was made in the first place and what steps they are inacting to make sure it does not happen again.

one of those steps in the accusation of boting should be that each person is given the chance to have his account reviewed by another party at stars. having one person review all grievances and discouraging the person accused from forwarding the complaint on is really bad policy.

bwana

Re: Resolution of the Stars investigation.
 

Now I plan on purchasing a bot, they wont be expecting it now!

Re: Resolution of the Stars investigation.
 

[ QUOTE ]
it was discovered that Jeff had made an error in his finding that my mom had been using a bot. Both Jeff and Lee have written emails to my mother acknowledging the mistake and apologizing with both humility and extraordinary class. Jeff also apologized for the aggressive and sometimes stubborn tone that he used in his emails. I want to state up front that they really did handle this 'mea culpa' with extraordinary professionalism and class.


[/ QUOTE ]

I am still disappointed that someone from stars has not come here and addressed the issue directly to this community. Have they actually stated where the mistake was made? Have they acknowledged that, no, your mom didn't play for 43 straight hours , on several occasions.

I appreciate that they have acknowledged a mistake and have appologized for the tone of the correspondence to your mom. And maybe they don't owe "us" any type of explanation. It was your mom who they wronged and have righted that wrong. It would still be nice to hear from them that they value our opinions and misgivings concerning this matter.

I think you should consider posting the lastest emails from stars if they don't accede to your request for them to post a reply here.

edit: of course this drama only started "here" a little over 3 days ago. and while most of us have been following it and waiting for each succesive post to learn the latest (at least I have) 3 days is really not that long of a time period for stars to do their investigation, draw their conclusions and then reply first to teddy and his mom and then hopefully to us.

Re: Resolution of the Stars investigation.
 

Why hasn't ColdCaller posted in this thread yet, oh why?

Re: Resolution of the Stars investigation.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1) 100% correct. My mother's account was NOT active for 43 straight hours. Jeff's email said that the security measure they had in place initially identified that time period as having been 43 straight hours, and he simply made a mistake when he investigated in more detail.

[/ QUOTE ]

6) Please don't tell me that the ONLY evidence they had against your mum was that she played for 43 straight hours (they thought)?

That alone was enough to get her account closed? Was enough to get Jeff bragging about what an incredible technical genius he is, and how sophisticated Stars' highly secret, state of the art, bot detection algorithms are?

Please don't tell me that....

[/ QUOTE ]

http://tinypic.com/iol0sh.jpg

"Please tell me you have something more, Lieutenant.."

Re: Resolution of the Stars investigation.
 

OMFG this is in no way any worse than anything anyone else has said. Its a joke man, lighten up. Get a grip.