[Crossposted from MSNL] - bottom set laydown
 

Sorry if this is a problem to crosspost a hand but the guys at MSNL just don't believe me for some reason since I have been posting both incredible w/t laydowns as well as nutso LAG plays. They think I'm a JOPKE. I hope you don't.

This guy is incredibly straightforward. I don't think I have ever seen him pull a semibluff such as this in an UNRAISED POT. I really feel that he has strictly 66 here althought an OESFD may also be a possibility. My image is pretty solid TAG as is his but he is a LOT tighter.

e.g. two hands ago someone raises in EP and he FLATCALLS in MP with KK....

onto the hand:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) internettexasholdem.com

CO ($1702.75)
Button ($405)
SB ($714.75)
BB ($188.75)
UTG ($1442.94)
UTG+1 ($1085)
UTG+2 ($1172.25)
MP1 ($687.50)
Hero ($1090)
MP3 ($1436)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $5.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP1 calls $10, Hero calls $10, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, SB (poster) completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($40) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets $35</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $135</font>, SB folds, BB folds, MP1 calls $642.50 (All-In), Hero folds.

Final Pot: $852.50

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
No showdown. MP1 wins $852.50. </font>

Re: [Crossposted from MSNL] - bottom set laydown
 

wow horrible. lots of draws. and a 65bb stack. bottom sets can be folded on 853 rainbow flops for 100bbs or more. not here

Re: [Crossposted from MSNL] - bottom set laydown
 

no way am i ever folding here even vs. the tightest of players for like 2/3 a stack. this hand is sick...

Re: [Crossposted from MSNL] - bottom set laydown
 

Full ring is dumb. If you're sure he has 66 then you're obviously drawing to one out and folding is right.

Re: [Crossposted from MSNL] - bottom set laydown
 

wow this looks really bad.

Re: [Crossposted from MSNL] - bottom set laydown
 

its 500ish more to call and I truely feel I am drawing to one out...maybe he semibluffed the crap out of me, but more often than not I think I am looking at 66

56 is practically impossible. QQ being limped is rediculous (but you never know vs these nits). 66 makes a lot of sense given pf action and flop action.

I don't know how often nits limp 78s. AK spades is possible but that's the only hand that semibluffs here.

AQ/KQ are also possible but a lot of the time nits fold them to raises in unraised pots OOP...at least I do

Re: [Crossposted from MSNL] - bottom set laydown
 

No chance I fold here.

Calling KK against a raiser does not nec. mean you are tight, try it sometime.(not all the time but sometime and watch what happens to qq)

Re: [Crossposted from MSNL] - bottom set laydown
 

lmao grim sorry but this game is dumb

Re: [Crossposted from MSNL] - bottom set laydown
 

stop lying. u didn't fold here.

Re: [Crossposted from MSNL] - bottom set laydown
 

I did.

Re: [Crossposted from MSNL] - bottom set laydown
 

bad fold grim. people will bet/3bet A7spades here, etc.

and its only 650 ffs!

Re: [Crossposted from MSNL] - bottom set laydown
 

ffs? (for fux sake?)

it's 500 more ... on top of my raise (which may have been too small come to think of it).

had I raised more on flop I def woulda called his 3bet

Re: [Crossposted from MSNL] - bottom set laydown
 

Not gonna say it was bad move, you might of folded the second best hand. I know I wouldn't think about the hand all day if he had an overset though, I'd just take my beat and move on. If I didn't call, I'd wonder for the next 2 days whether he had it or not. There's also a question of how much is it to call? If the pot is 200 and it's only 600 more to call... well, I just might have to. If the pot is 200, and it's 6000 more to call, now I definatly fold. The only question is where do you draw the line?

Re: [Crossposted from MSNL] - bottom set laydown
 

Good question pizza. I don't know exactly. This is a very Skalsnkyesque question.

Re: [Crossposted from MSNL] - bottom set laydown
 

Seems like the answer would relate more to psychology than it would to mathematics.

Re: [Crossposted from MSNL] - bottom set laydown
 

If you folded everytime in this situation you are losing alot of value vs. draw pushers. If it's 666 over 555 bad luck, you get over it, that's why you have at least a 20-30 buyin bankroll.

Re: [Crossposted from MSNL] - bottom set laydown
 

[ QUOTE ]
Not gonna say it was bad move, you might of folded the second best hand. I know I wouldn't think about the hand all day if he had an overset though, I'd just take my beat and move on. If I didn't call, I'd wonder for the next 2 days whether he had it or not. There's also a question of how much is it to call? If the pot is 200 and it's only 600 more to call... well, I just might have to. If the pot is 200, and it's 6000 more to call, now I definatly fold. The only question is where do you draw the line?

[/ QUOTE ]

on this board texture, at least a couple buyins. this is assuming an infinite bankroll obv.

Re: [Crossposted from MSNL] - bottom set laydown
 

in a limped pot you will put in 3 buy ins here Clayton?

Re: [Crossposted from MSNL] - bottom set laydown
 

OH NO!

this is AA/KK enough alone to make this a call!

Re: [Crossposted from MSNL] - bottom set laydown
 

im saying at least 2. like maybe 225BBish.

yes u see 66 sometimes but it is also straightforward for him to play a draw hard like this. also AA/KK.

part of me thinks u are just overemphasizing his supposed tightness to make u feel better about the fold.

Re: [Crossposted from MSNL] - bottom set laydown
 

well he told me he had 66 after the hand was over...idk if he was telling the truth or not and if I'm being result oriented but I really felt I was beat.

Re: [Crossposted from MSNL] - bottom set laydown
 

[ QUOTE ]
OH NO!

this is AA/KK enough alone to make this a call!

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: [Crossposted from MSNL] - bottom set laydown
 

im with grim. good fold.

if he is a lag its an easy call. but someone this tight as grim explained can only have 66 or even QQ.

Re: [Crossposted from MSNL] - bottom set laydown
 

That isn't true.

Re: [Crossposted from MSNL] - bottom set laydown
 

Terrible.

Re: [Crossposted from MSNL] - bottom set laydown
 

this is the problem with so many players i think, they view there only hand strength rather than deciding what the opponent has and then whether they beat them.

he calls with a nuts draw and folds any Q. he reraises with 6s or Qs.

Re: [Crossposted from MSNL] - bottom set laydown
 

That isn't true (again).

Re: [Crossposted from MSNL] - bottom set laydown
 

ps. im not referring to any players in particular, i have a lot of respect for a number of posters, just a lot of players on the forums dont seem to be able to make big laydowns.

Re: [Crossposted from MSNL] - bottom set laydown
 

thx for backing me up john [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: [Crossposted from MSNL] - bottom set laydown
 

[ QUOTE ]
ps. im not referring to any players in particular, i have a lot of respect for a number of posters, just a lot of players on the forums dont seem to be able to make big laydowns.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry but laying down bottom set here for 66 bb's or whatever isn't a "Big laydown"...it's just stupid. I think people on this forum forget sometimes that human beings are not robots. People will do crazy [censored] sometimes at the poker table, they will deviate from their "image". Sometimes people just make random plays and they don't know why. Sometimes they even BLUFF.

You really think he has exactly 66 here more than he has an overpair, 65, AK suited, 78 suited or a bluff?

There's no way you can be that sure to lay down in that small of a pot. Not getting away from undersets in spots like these is not a big leak in your game and I think folding here is probably -ev.

Re: [Crossposted from MSNL] - bottom set laydown
 

I have a question for all of you guys. I don't play NL very often, but, I was in a situation similar to this however, I had the middle set on the flop and acted before the villian. I went all in, because there was a flush and str8 draw on the board. I had about $750 left as did the villian and the pot was about $300. The villian called and had top set and won the hand. Was it the right move to go all in there?

Re: [Crossposted from MSNL] - bottom set laydown
 

Grimm, I am a nit in FR and this fold is horrible.

There are two clear draws and an OESFD on the board. Nits might *call* raises with big pairs, but they still open raise queens (but they do limp AQ.) His range is relatively narrow but you have the effective second nuts. You also have two pieces of information from him: a pot bet (he hit the board) and a three bet push into a big LAG. Oh, and you're getting 1.5:1.

Baaaarf.

Re: [Crossposted from MSNL] - bottom set laydown
 

put yourself in the shoes of villain. if you had AA, KK, AK/AJ spades, 78 spades, or AQ, what would you do when a lag raises you on a drawy board and you have 65bb???

i think this justifies a call. although i do agree 66 is a very likely hand here.

Re: [Crossposted from MSNL] - bottom set laydown
 

"wow this looks really bad."

not if:

"Full ring is dumb. If you're sure he has 66 then you're obviously drawing to one out and folding is right. "

but it's not the only hand he's pushing.