a 200-400 AK hand
 

8 handed 200-400 but one player is sitting out. game is playing fast and big. i start the hand with about 42k.

dealt: AKo in the sb.

folded to active young guy one off the button. he opens to 1100, folded to me.

sometimes i call here sometimes i raise. this time i raise it to 3800. he calls.

flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] - pot: $7800 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

sometimes i bet here but this time i check. he bets 6k. i call.

turn 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] pot: 19800.

i don't have a heart. i check planning to CR AI. he doesn't comply and checks behind.

river Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] pot: 19800.

i check. he bets 16k. i?

please share your thoughts on all streets and proposed lines.

Re: a 200-400 AK hand
 

Someone with one post, already has an avatar set up and correctly using the forum images... posting a 200/400 hand with no reads. wtf is wrong with this forum this week.

Re: a 200-400 AK hand
 

I am asuming you DON'T have the K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I like to bet the fop since there are a LOT of draws on this flop (FD, GSSDs) and also get a sense of where I am at.

On the turn I like the idea of c/ring AI if you KNOW he will bet. If you lead here your line looks VERY suspiscious.

On the river just remember you checked three streets. You can have ANYTHING. I wouldn't be suprised if he bluffs here with air but then again it could also be the nuts.

I'd flip a coin and call/fold.

Re: a 200-400 AK hand
 

Hey Freddy (if thats really you),

I think its either a fold or CR all in. You can't call here. I'm leaning towards a fold. Save your chips for a better spot.

Re: a 200-400 AK hand
 

haha

Re: a 200-400 AK hand
 

i really don't think calling is good here.

Re: a 200-400 AK hand
 

yeah I usually just fold

but our hand is a really good bluffcatcher.

Re: a 200-400 AK hand
 

Must be the shirt..

Re: a 200-400 AK hand
 

go south for your whole stack and pretend you were all in on the flop

Re: a 200-400 AK hand
 

c/r all in

Re: a 200-400 AK hand
 

I'm sorry, is it you?

http://www.pokerplayernewspaper.com/...w.php?image=32

How could you catch this King in 2003 wsop main ivent against Ivey [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: a 200-400 AK hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
go south for your whole stack and pretend you were all in on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

Re: a 200-400 AK hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
i really don't think calling is good here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not? Why raise all in here?

Re: a 200-400 AK hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i really don't think calling is good here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not? Why raise all in here?

[/ QUOTE ]

obv its a bluff but I think this is a bad spot to do it. we have noooo clue what villian's got here and it could easily be a FH/flush for all we know. c/r all in is pretty much repping a boat but idk if it's the best EVwise play since we are risking so much of our stack to win so little

thats why I dont like bluffraising as much as bluffbetting

Re: a 200-400 AK hand
 

What is the value of a turn check raise?

Re: a 200-400 AK hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
river Q pot: 19800.

i check. he bets 16k. i?


[/ QUOTE ]

It seems the river bet is a little too big. I believe Villain don't wan't a call. If Villain covers you, and given the weird line you played this hand, Allin is the move here, planning to make him fold a weak heart

Re: a 200-400 AK hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
c/r all in

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: a 200-400 AK hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
river Q pot: 19800.

i check. he bets 16k. i?


[/ QUOTE ]

It seems the river bet is a little too big. I believe Villain don't wan't a call. If Villain covers you, and given the weird line you played this hand, Allin is the move here, planning to make him fold a weak heart

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't unerstand the value in pushing, i really doubt villian is betting this much with a weak heart at this point. IMO, villain either has a boat, K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or something you beat.

Re: a 200-400 AK hand
 

results?

Re: a 200-400 AK hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
results?

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

Re: a 200-400 AK hand
 

how aggressive is your opponent? how loose is he? being out of position, my default line would be to check-raise the flop significantly (raising his 6K to about 17K) and then not putting another penny in the pot. of course, this is highly dependent on the quality of your opponent.

Re: a 200-400 AK hand
 

This board is too "active" to check. I probably make a pot-sized bet. If the board was rainbow, I "might" think about checking, but I'd still bet most of the time.

Re: a 200-400 AK hand
 

what is your plan on the turn if your flop bet is called? what if the turn is (a) a heart; (b) a jack; (c) a brick. How do you proceed then?

I think a check-raise allows you to define where you are better. Also it may make your opponent think that he is going to have to defend with his stack (though in actuality I advocate not putting any more money in after a check raise in this situation).

Re: a 200-400 AK hand
 

Personally i would have a VERY hard time calling that bet, aside from a stone cold bluff you are beaten and probly pretty bad.

Noone here even seems to consider the possibility of a reverse-bluff with something in the lines of QQ or 77 (probably not q-7 considering the pre-flop action except a Q-7 suited and a VERY loose call).

I would fold to fight another day, second to fold i would push all-in

Re: a 200-400 AK hand
 

How does moving in have any EV on calling? He calls with anything that beats us and folds anything that doesn't. Hero just donates by moving in if he's behind...

Re: a 200-400 AK hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
my default line would be to check-raise the flop significantly (raising his 6K to about 17K) and then not putting another penny in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you need AK to do this? Unless the villain checks behind on the turn and river, a strategy like this takes all the value out of your hand, right? So it doesn't matter what you have.

Re: a 200-400 AK hand
 

good point Jman...so you are pretty much saying that c/r has no value in this spot

c/c is OK but I think giving a free card if he's semibluffing is no good

c/f is def not happening

leading is OK...and I guess we can go broke here if he's really that agro since he may raise with a draw.

Re: a 200-400 AK hand
 

No guys, the point is that you are giving up on the hand if he calls your check-raise. If he is a decent opponent, what hand is he calling a preflop reraise and then calling a hefty flop check-raise with? ... If you check-raise big on the flop and he calls you, I think you can comfortably give up on the hand. I still think check-raising the flop is the best line.

Re: a 200-400 AK hand
 

Note of course, that his range of hands to call a check-raise with is much smaller than those with which he can call a lead bet (after which you will be more confused about whether or not you are behind).

Re: a 200-400 AK hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
... If you check-raise big on the flop and he calls you, I think you can comfortably give up on the hand. I still think check-raising the flop is the best line.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is there any hand which you might reraise with preflop and might not checkraise the flop with? If so, why don't you checkraise with that hand and stop checkraising AK a certain percentage of the time?

Re: a 200-400 AK hand
 

that is really a function of the flop isn't it? ... if the opponent and situation is right, I will check-raise after reraising with 22 on an ace high flop. ... I just think that given the fact that you are out of position, a check-raise on the flop with AK provides the best risk-reward.

Re: a 200-400 AK hand
 

Hmm, so basically you're making pretty much all your possible holdings in this spot into bluffs? [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] I don't like the fact that we would lose pretty much all value that AK has got here. Generally I would just accept that for players like you and bldswttrs, raising in spots where it would be just plain bad for a TAG-player to raise does make a lot more sense.

In this case, however, when you state that, if called on your check-raise you would not invest any more money, I cannot really see the idea behind it. It would have made more sense for a samoleus-kind-of-player to checkraise with weaker holdings for value in spots where it would be suicide for the "normal" tag (e.g a standard bad move of making all worse hands fold and all better call), because he's prone to be on air so much of the time and thus will extract more value when he really does have a hand that is part of his stronger spektrum.

Re: a 200-400 AK hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
that is really a function of the flop isn't it?

[/ QUOTE ]

sure is. Assume, I dunno, say a flop of A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
I just think that given the fact that you are out of position, a check-raise on the flop with AK provides the best risk-reward.

[/ QUOTE ]

would you agree then that if checkraising the flop here with AK 'provides the best risk-reward', with the plan of comfortably giving up on the hand if called, then you should be checkraising all hands worse than AK on the flop here too?

Re: a 200-400 AK hand
 

"I check planning to c/r all-in on the turn" - You better hope he doesnt have KQ or QJ of hearts or a small suited connector of hearts, or QQ or AQ, cuz its gonna suck lol

Re: a 200-400 AK hand
 

i appreciate some of the thoughts presented in this thread.

however i thought this hand was of more interest and would generate some more interesting discussion.

it is in interesting spot flopping TPTK w/ AK in a re-raised pot out of position against a very active player.

Re: a 200-400 AK hand
 

is this a gimmick acct or real?

if real, was the player nick or brad?

Re: a 200-400 AK hand
 

nevermind, must be fake, still in the tourney

Re: a 200-400 AK hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
i appreciate some of the thoughts presented in this thread.

however i thought this hand was of more interest and would generate some more interesting discussion.

it is in interesting spot flopping TPTK w/ AK in a re-raised pot out of position against a very active player.

[/ QUOTE ]

i would happily get it all in there

Re: a 200-400 AK hand
 

no way - that is way too much of a blanket statement. also you are neglecting the large amount of equity when your opponent calls the checkraise with AJ suited or a heart draw and it goes check-check on turn and river.

Re: a 200-400 AK hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
nevermind, must be fake, still in the tourney

[/ QUOTE ]

This is quite inconclusive as evidence. The hand was posted on the 19th....