Some notes on notes
 

It's been a while since I posted a helpful thread here in micro, and after a good long day at the 3/6 tables, I decided I'd write up a little something on the notes I take during and after play.

Right now I 4-table 3/6, and I end up seeing the same players, often good, day in and day out. At 3/6, you run into the same people more often than you do at 2/4 (or 1/2 or .5/1). The game remains the same, but as you move up, it becomes more and more important to find tables with unskilled players and adjust to the play of skilled players. To help me with this, there are 3 basic things I use:

1. PokerTracker stat profiles.
Some players here don't use pokertracker, or use it mainly to track their own play and results over time. Beyond the simple accounting and storage of hands for myself, I mainly use it to keep track of my opponents. PT makes this easier by allowing you to export stats (through the advanced export feature) and to assign icons to track player profiles. In the newest beta patch, which I recommend everyone download, you can set up different stat ranges for each icon, and have PT automatically update each player's profile to make sure they're in the right range.

MS Sunshine had a very popular post (which someone can link to) that detailed his stat standards for passive, very passive, tight, v. tight, aggro and so on. At the moment, PT provides 12 icons. I use one of these to mark 2+2ers, and 11 to sort everybody else.

Everybody gets a preflop designation and a postflop designation. If there were more icons, I'd break it down more precisely, but I've found this is pretty helpful so far. The stats I use are VP$IP (basically, pre-flop tightness), PFR (preflop aggression) and Total Aggression (not counting preflop, so it gives us a nice summary of postflop aggression).

Loose-Passives
LP-P - fish icon - Loose preflop (VP > 30). Passive preflop (PFR < 5). Passive postflop (TOT-A < 1.5).
LP-A - elephant icon - Loose preflop (VP > 30). Passive preflop (PFR < 5). Aggressive postflop (TOT-A > 1.5).
sLP-P - phone icon - slightly Loose preflop (30 > VP > 20). Passive preflop (PFR < 5). Passive postflop (TOT-A < 1.5).
sLP-A - ? icon - slightly Loose preflop (30 > VP > 20). Passive preflop (PFR < 5). Aggressive postflop (TOT-A > 1.5).

Loose-Aggressives
LA-P - dice icon - Loose preflop (VP > 30). Aggro preflop (PFR > 5). Passive postflop (TOT-A < 1.5).
LA-A - taz icon - Loose preflop (VP > 30). Aggro preflop (PFR < 5). Aggressive postflop (TOT-A > 1.5).
sLA-P - frown icon - slightly Loose preflop (30 > VP > 20). Aggro preflop (PFR > 5). Passive postflop (TOT-A < 1.5).
sLA-A - smile icon - slightly Loose preflop (30 > VP > 20). Aggro preflop (PFR > 5). Aggressive postflop (TOT-A > 1.5).

Tight-Passives
TP-P - rock icon - Tight preflop (VP < 20). Passive preflop (PFR < 5). Passive postflop (TOT-A < 1.5).
TP-A - mouse icon - Tight preflop (VP < 30). Passive preflop (PFR < 5). Aggressive postflop (TOT-A > 1.5).

Tight-Aggressives
TA-P - triangle icon - Tight preflop (VP < 20). Aggro preflop (PFR > 5). Passive postflop (TOT-A < 1).
TA-N - eagle icon - Tight preflop (VP < 20). Aggro preflop (PFR < 5). Neutral postflop (1 < TOT-A < 2).
TA-A - moneybag icon - Tight preflop (VP < 20). Aggro preflop (PFR < 5). Aggro postflop (TOT-A > 2). This is the group I am in and the group you want to be in.

I automatically assign anyone with 30 hands to these categories, and advance export notes on everyone with > 20 hands after each day's session. In the end, everyone I've played 3 orbits with has the # of hands, the icon, the 2 preflop stats and the street by street postflop aggression stats exported.

For those wondering, here are the breakdowns by group count from all my hands this year (min. 30 hands):

LP-P - 1604
LP-A - 267
sLP-P - 578
sLP-A - 231

LA-P - 948
LA-A - 538
sLA-P - 307
sLA-A - 391

TP-P - 417
TP-A - 320

TA-P - 92
TA-N - 168
TA-A - 342

2. The PT game time window.
All that exported stuff is well and good, but it's static, and you'll often want to keep running tabs on players that are new (or get a substantial number of hands) during a given session. For this, I set PT to request HHs every 5 minutes, import hand histories the moment they arrive, and keep an external game time window open at all times.

That way, I can switch the game time window to the current session quickly and make preflop decisions a lot easier. UTG raises, (I see he's not a rock so I confidently 3-bet w/TT) then see what his postflop aggression looks like to have a vague hint as to whether he'd push at me with overcards. It's not precise, but as a multi-tabler, it's really helpful.

3. Shorthand notes.
For the moment, party and it's affiliates are restricting the character count of player notes to something like 84 characters, which is not a lot. With this in mind, I'm going to tell you to ignore preflop notes. Honestly, unless he does something really interesting like not raise from blinds with AK or QQ, you're better off using your notes for postflop action where the decisions are more important. What notes you should take is up to you, but I do something like the following:

"Player made a flop bet into the preflop raiser in a multiway pot with bottom pair" becomes "F b 2 pf-r mw w/bp"

"Calls down with any part of the board" becomes "cd w/apob"

"checkraised flopped trips on turn" becomes "cr F trp T" with the possible addendum "w/o pf-r".

That way when the flop comes I can open up everyone's notes real quick and see:

"b 2 LPpf-r w/bp on prdF" - "Bet into late position preflop raiser with bottom pair on a paired flop" (note, bp meaning not trips)

or

"no b F OESD mw" - "Did not bet a flopped openended straight draw multiway."

or

"blf cr scr T flsh w/nil HU pf-r" - "bluff check-raised a scary turn flush card with nothing heads up vs. the pre-flop raiser (and probable aggressor in hand)"

-------------------------------

That's all I have to say. That's my system, feel free to use it or change it or ignore it. I just thought that the prospect of note-taking on all the people you see may seem daunting to a lot of people but it boils down to this:

Let pokertracker handle some automatic sorting and use your limited time and space to note the unusual things that your opponents do.

Re: Some notes on notes
 

Good post.

After how many hands will you classify a player?

Re: Some notes on notes
 

After how many hands will you classify a player?

I used to export at 30 and only classify at 100, but now that PT let's you set up these ranges and automatically reclassify, I export at 20 and classify at 30.

Frankly, the auto-reclassifying made me sit up and really rethink my note-taking process (especially my need to focus on postflop notes) and this is the result. Essentially, as long as you don't treat the stat groups as gospel, it's very very helpful.

Re: Some notes on notes...nice post....N/M
 

[img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: Some notes on notes
 

MS Sunshine's PT post

Re: Some notes on notes
 

Where do you get this new beta patch. Website link please.

Re: Some notes on notes
 

Go to the PT forums, the "PokerTracker" forum within that forum. there's a stickied thread at the top.

Re: Some notes on notes
 

Thanks Bison,

You do some programming yourself too?

Are you a compsci major or did you teach yourself, or somehting in between?

Re: Some notes on notes
 

I was an English and History major. I did some webwork in school and after I graduated I taught myself PHP and perl. Have no formal cs training.

Re: Some notes on notes
 

Fantastic post Bison!

Re: Some notes on notes
 

I'm glad somebody finally came up with a use for all those cool and funny icons. Elephants, fish, and tazmanian devils, OH MY!!

Re: Some notes on notes
 

Questions.

SHouldn't your mouse be tight preflop <20 (you have it less than 30)

Shouldn't your eagle and moneybag be PFR greater than 5? (you have it less than 5)

Re: Some notes on notes
 

Great post bison. Keep up the good work. I have learned a lot from your "educational" posts.

Re: Some notes on notes
 

[ QUOTE ]
I automatically assign anyone with 30 hands to these categories, and advance export notes on everyone with > 20 hands after each day's session.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you use the "Icon Mass Update" under the "Summary" tab for each category every day?

Is there an easier way to update all the icons?

Re: Some notes on notes
 

Great post. Keep up the good work. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Some notes on notes
 

Hey Bison, you mentioned that you quad-table and use PT's in game tracker window at the same time. Do you have a dual monitor setup for this? I've found it difficult to use the in game tracker with more than 2 tables. Also, when you use Party's notes do you have enough time to really use them as you play?

Re: Some notes on notes
 

[ QUOTE ]
Tight-Aggressives
TA-P - triangle icon - Tight preflop (VP < 20). Aggro preflop (PFR > 5). Passive postflop (TOT-A < 1).
TA-N - eagle icon - Tight preflop (VP < 20). Aggro preflop (PFR < 5). Neutral postflop (1 < TOT-A < 2).
TA-A - moneybag icon - Tight preflop (VP < 20). Aggro preflop (PFR < 5). Aggro postflop (TOT-A > 2). This is the group I am in and the group you want to be in.


[/ QUOTE ]

Bison,

Excellent post, one question. Are all those Tight Aggressives supposed to be PFR greater than 5%. If so, I am happy because I am a member of your club (ok, junior member), otherwise I am confused because everything else fits that last TAG profile but my PFR is closer to 8%.

On the short handed notes thing, I just put the export notes in the player notes for Party. Poker Tracker does not truncate the notes so if you always add notes to Poker Tracker, you don't have to short hand it. I never import notes from Party, just export. The GameTime window has a large notes window at the bottom so you can write descriptive notes and not have to read shorthand. Thanks again for the post, great stuff.

Vern

Re: Some notes on notes
 

Yeah, some of the less thans should be greater thans. When I say "aggro preflop" I mean > than 5% pfr.

Re: Some notes on notes
 

Loony,

Download the beta patch and play around with the auto-rate feature. That's the key here. The mass icon update is simply too clumsy a tool (and doesn't let you sort by anything but VP$, PFR and showdowns won).

Re: Some notes on notes
 

Great post Bison. I have been working on my auto-rate rules as well lately, you and I both agree that total agression should be a factor, but I didn't think about including pre-flop raise % as an additional factor (I was removing pfr from my equasion).

Two things I think you should consider -

1) You have some slight overlap which may confuse the Poker Tracker auto-rate engine. I adjusted your reccomended numbers accordingly so there will not be a problem (for example VPIP% between 20 and 29.99 instead of between 20 and 30)

2) As an option you could ignore the slight number change that I reccomended and instead use the priority field. In that case what priority would you set for each icon?

In da club [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Some notes on notes
 

There are some >= and <= that I didn't include.

Re: Some notes on notes
 

Where can I download the beta patch? I see the version 2.04.00 link on the website, is that what you're talking about?

Re: Some notes on notes
 

Re: Some notes on notes
 

<font color="white">bumping the river for value.</font>

Re: Some notes on notes
 

great info..I'd never used the icons in PT, usually just exported notes. Never used the game time window either. Needless to say, I'll be using both now I think.

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Some notes on notes
 

good info.

i'm a bit curious about number 2, the game-time window.
i find it difficult to update for different players coming in an out, etc.
perhaps i need to experiment with it more.
interesting ideas to auto-request the HH's and import them every 5 minutes so you can really keep up with what player is playing really goofy without having to try to keep track of 36 random names on 4 different tables.
although, as you already pointed out, there are enough familiar rocks around 3/6 that it isn't really 36 seperate names. you get to the point where you recognize many of them and know their style of play without even having to consult the notes too much.

Re: Some notes on notes
 

Yeah, Bob if you're going to multitable and use the gametime window, you basically have to import as often as possible. The sample sizes I'm using here are so small that a couple of orbits with somebody can often entirely alter their stats, but I'd rather that the stats have a margin of error of 49% than of 50%, so I import as often as possible.

Re: Some notes on notes
 

Bison,

Would something like this be better than the default icons in PT? http://home.twcny.rr.com/vernmcc/TA-A.GIF

Re: Some notes on notes
 

I dunno, to each his own.

Re: Some notes on notes
 

I am just trying to be able to not have to remember "Question mark means..." type thought and just looking at the GT window and seeing an icon that says TAG/LAG/LP etc right on it. Just a thought. Pat says he will look at adding more icons and hopefully a way for us add and edit our own.

Re: Some notes on notes
 

Vern-
I'm with you, I would love to have customized icons in PT.

Re: Some notes on notes
 

I'm just curious why you have a LP-P and a sLP-P (and others). I understand the difference in that the sLP-P sees less flops but what are some examples of how this may sway a decision at the table.

Furthermore, has anyone taken the time to categorize what each VP$IP % means or what each PFR % means? What percentage would you put the following players? Would the following be somewhat accurate?

For VP$IP:
Sklansky hands: 18% ???
SSH hands: 20% ???
Any Ace: 30% ???
Any Ace, Any King: 40% ???
Any suited: 50+% ???
Almost any two cards: 70+% ???

For PFR:
1%: AA KK AK AKs ???
3%: AA KK QQ JJ AKs AK ???
5%: AA KK QQ JJ AKs AQs AJs AK AQ ???

For Aggression:
0.35: rarely ever bets or raises ???
0.50: bets top pair only/raises only the nuts ???
1.0: bets top pair, open end straight draws, and flush draws ???
1.5: May raise second pair sometimes to protect hand ???
2.0: ???

You get the picture. Has anyone tried to figure out what each percentage means? The figures I put together above were just for the sake of setting up an example and may or may not be accurate.

Re: Some notes on notes
 

Great post, love it! This may be a dumb question but now that you have this great information on players, which icons do you love to see at your table and how do you make your decisions when you do see a Taz or a Rock or a Fish making bets?

Re: Some notes on notes
 

I hadn't, but it would be interesting and would work as a nice way of giving life to the % number..It wouldn't be too hard to write a sql stmt that would pull the data out you would need I think..might have to run it through some mathwork in excel..might be an easier way, but I don't code outside of sql.

or just look in poker tracker hand at a time =/

Re: Some notes on notes
 

Dude. This is now only the 3rd thread ever to be added to my favorites. Great info all around.

I will sheepishly admit that I have only recently downloaded Pokertracker, and haven't explored all of the features yet. But man, I can't wait to figure out how to set up what you're describing.

Thanks for the great post and info.

Re: Some notes on notes
 

Great thread, bison. Now I just need to figure out how to get auto-importing histories working (I only have IMAP accounts, unfortunately).

Re: Some notes on notes
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Bison, you mentioned that you quad-table and use PT's in game tracker window at the same time. Do you have a dual monitor setup for this? I've found it difficult to use the in game tracker with more than 2 tables. Also, when you use Party's notes do you have enough time to really use them as you play?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know what bison does, but here's what I do.
I have my resolution set on a 15" monitor so there's a small amount of overlap on my 4 party tables.
I have 4 Game Time windows open that are behind its corresponding table. You don't need to see the game time window all the time, just when you need help making a decision (Bison's example about whether to 3-bet with TT preflop is perfect)

This being said, I'd love to get another monitor [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Some notes on notes
 

Nochance,

Intuitively, I think that players with VPIP between 20 and 30 are playing all decent hands (all pairs, all suited aces, all suited connectors) without concern for position, and adding in some offsuit broadway hands and offsuit connectors. They're thinking about the hands they play, but not thinking hard enough.

Players with VPIP higher than that are often playing any of those hands for any number of bets preflop, adding any two suited, any ace, and/or any broadway-x.

I added the distinction to my own notes because so many players end up sorted under "slightly loose". They're not terrible, and some of them are quite good (hell, astroglide's 3/6 stats would have put him as sLA-A), and they're distinctly better than the really loose players who just hate to fold.

Re: Some notes on notes
 

Hey Bison, you mentioned that you quad-table and use PT's in game tracker window at the same time. Do you have a dual monitor setup for this? I've found it difficult to use the in game tracker with more than 2 tables. Also, when you use Party's notes do you have enough time to really use them as you play?

I have a monitor with 1600x1200 support, so I can 4 table without overlap. I keep only one gametime window open at a time, because I found that XP kept collapsing the program groups. Frankly, it became easier to switch the gametime window than to hunt for the right one while keeping open 5 party windows, PT, Outlook and IE.

Hopefully, in a couple of months I'll be able to afford another LCD monitor, and then all this will adjust again.

Re: Some notes on notes
 

Great post, love it! This may be a dumb question but now that you have this great information on players, which icons do you love to see at your table and how do you make your decisions when you do see a Taz or a Rock or a Fish making bets?

By far the best players to find are LP-P. These are the guys who make the game truly profitable. Anyone who sees that many flops is just throwing their money away in the long run.

In some ways, I prefer TAs to TPs at a table, because at least TAs give action, which keeps the table loose. Sure, their actions may fool you and crush your spirit, but it's just more enjoyable than having a bunch of rocks folding and folding and folding.