Stars 150 Hand - HCPB
 

This is another hand from the Help Chief Play Better (hcpb) series.

We are down to probably 15 or so. I have been very tight, and have a good image. Villian in this hand has been somewhat tight as well, and we had not had a BvB battle at all. Then this hand comes up.

I think there were three critical points in this hand, and one made the next one worse. But would like opinions on each street. I'll start with the flop. Its certianly debatable that I could/should have raised/folded preflop, but I dont feel like that was one of the big problems I had in this hand.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t1500 (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button (t26635)
SB (t38221)
Hero (t31741)
UTG (t25542)
MP1 (t18492)
MP2 (t10410)
CO (t15615)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to t4700</font>, Hero calls t3200.

Flop: (t8350) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets t6500</font>, Hero.....

Re: Stars 150 Hand - HCPB
 

I would have pushed preflop, but given that you have no history with him, calling seems reasonable.

I can't imagine anything other than just calling being correct on this flop. Raising is kamikaze, folding is w/t.

Re: Stars 150 Hand - HCPB
 

If you call the flop, the pot is 21050 and you will have 20,541. It will also be very hard to lay down later, therefore I fold or push and in this case I push.

Why do you call preflop? I want to understand your thinking? Unless you hit an Ace, you won't know where you really stand and get to play a big pot against another big stack.

I am not sure raising preflop is better...

Re: Stars 150 Hand - HCPB
 

what kind of a player was he?

on average i shove pf or shove the flop

Re: Stars 150 Hand - HCPB
 

Doesn't shoving the flop allow villian to play perfectly?

I mean maybe he calls us with 87 every now and again.

Is it because this board has the potential for a fair amount of draws? I tend to not worry about them as much when HU, but maybe that's a mistake?

Re: Stars 150 Hand - HCPB
 

What is he has KQ? or any 2 overs? He is not likely to put any more money in the pot unless he improves to a better hand. If you just call on the flop you are giving him a free card (you don't make him pay an additionnal price). The pot = your stack if you call, therefore it is a huge pot and you don't need to extract more money.

You WOULD want him to stay in and put more bet when you have deeper stack and vilain is likely to bet again on the turn.

I tried to make it clear...

Re: Stars 150 Hand - HCPB
 

[ QUOTE ]
What is he has KQ? or any 2 overs? Is not likely not to put any more money in the pot unless he hits, therefore by just calling the flop you are giving him a free card. The pot = your stack if you call, therefore it is a huge pot and you don't want to try to extract more money.

You want him to stay in and put more bet when you have deeper stack and vilain is likely to bet again on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no idea what the hell you are saying. It seems you've contradicted yourself, but I can't even really tell.

I call the flop and push any turn.

Re: Stars 150 Hand - HCPB
 

there is just a gigantic range that villain could have here and your stack isn't deep enough to find out without becoming pot committed...

I would have either folded pf or pushed, and with your view of villain as tight, I'm inclined to fold...

I'm folding the flop as well, and I don't care if it's weak because I enjoy favorable position in a few hands with the perfect size stacks to pick on...

Re: Stars 150 Hand - HCPB
 

[ QUOTE ]
I call the flop and push any turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you explain why you would do that? What do you accomplish?

Re: Stars 150 Hand - HCPB
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I call the flop and push any turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you explain why you would do that? What do you accomplish?

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you first please explain what the hell you were saying in the post I quoted? It made no sense, you contradicted yourself.

Also, my turn push is HIGHLY dependant on his actions, because he acts first. Villian's range is pretty much any 2 from the SB, and he could have junk on this continuation bet.

Re: Stars 150 Hand - HCPB
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I call the flop and push any turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you explain why you would do that? What do you accomplish?

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you first please explain what the hell you were saying in the post I quoted? It made no sense, you contradicted yourself.

Also, my turn push is HIGHLY dependant on his actions, because he acts first. Villian's range is pretty much any 2 from the SB, and he could have junk on this continuation bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've re-write my post to try to make it clearer. I don't want 2 overs to stay in so I push.

Then I tried to explain in what situation you want him to stay in with overs, but in this case the pot is too big to be in the "extract chips" mode. Also, I don't see myself folding on this flop therefore I would push instead of building a huge pot and facing a hard decision on the turn.

Re: Stars 150 Hand - HCPB
 

Hi Chief,

I don't know what to make of your preflop play. You seem a bit too deep to just dump it all in right there, but calling seems kinda goofy with such a difficult hand to play postflop. I might just fold, nasty as that may be. Raising to 12k or so and pushing all flops when he checks is certainly viable.

On the flop, I think the people saying call are just out of line. You simply can't call here, and you can't fold, so just stick it in there and hope for the best. Fireball is right, two overs ginning the turn on you and then you're stuck w/ one pot sized bet is just sick. We want him to fold KQ here. Who cares if he plays perfectly? If he can beat this hand in a BvB, then so be it. Just don't give any free looks in this spot.

Re: Stars 150 Hand - HCPB
 

Im with Ian J on this flop. While we let him play perfectly by jamming, there's just to big a chance we make a mistake on the turn (while he can still play perfectly).

Re: Stars 150 Hand - HCPB
 

Because he's tight and we don't have any BvB history, I'm going to give his preflop raise credit here and fold (reluctantly). We know he's coming in with a bet post-flop and there's really no flop where we feel comfortable outside of flopping 2 pairs plus. If I had any read of him as an aggressive blind stealer, I'd jam preflop.

But given your call, I think you have to shove. It's too awkward to let a turn card come.

Re: Stars 150 Hand - HCPB
 

[ QUOTE ]
Im with Ian J on this flop. While we let him play perfectly by jamming, there's just to big a chance we make a mistake on the turn (while he can still play perfectly).

[/ QUOTE ]

I like that way of putting it.

Re: Stars 150 Hand - HCPB
 

Reraise to t12000 and wait for a response.
We can't afford to let a heart drop or who knows what SB has.

Re: Stars 150 Hand - HCPB
 

I don't like that . We want to find out is he has a legitimate hand or not. If he pushes all in against our flop re raise, then we have a decision earlier rather than possibly wasting chips.

Re: Stars 150 Hand - HCPB
 

Ian (And everyone),

I think you best put after I went through and postmortem'd the hand. It was such an awkward stack hand. I mean, with 10xBB, its pretty good time to push. But with that many BB, pushing seems like a pretty bad play. And as you and MLG said, it allows him to play perfect.

Regardless of results, I really think folding preflop is best. I had a great image, so stealing had not been problematic. Instead I ended up playing a big pot with A7.

Thank you again for all who put real thought into their replies. There will be another HCPB Saturday night. Thanks again.

Nick

p.s. For those of you wanting results, think of the LEAST optimal way to play the hand, and that's the line I took. Call flop bet, check behind on the turn, call river bet. I suck.

Nick