Loose games: Ed Miller disagrees with HEFAP
 

This is on the subject of raising Big Offsuit hands (AQo, AJo, KQo) in loose games in Late Position.

HEFAP reasons that you should not raise them but limp in because your edge against, say 4 limpers, is small since hands are offsuit. And when you do flop the top pair, the pot will be large enough for many loose weak players to have their playing style (calling) coinside with correct play.



Ed Miller, I assume, reasons that since you have that little bit of edge and position, sieze your edge now and raise.

Interesting ... thoughts?

Re: Loose games: Ed Miller disagrees with HEFAP
 

It's one of the big mysteries of the universe. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I have read a few threads on here about the issue where MM chimes in but they go something like this:

2+2er: Why does SSH and HEPFAP have contridicting advice?
MM: They don't contridict.
2+2er: Clearly the two styles are very different.
MM: The games are different.
2+2er: But both say its for games where players play too many hands and go to far with them.
MM: But the games are different.
2+2er: Can you explain in detail what type of game you would use the HEPFAP style in?
MM: Ones where players play too many hands and go too far with them.
2+2er: Huh? I really don't see the difference.
MM: Sorry, I can't explain it any other way.

Good luck trying to figure it out. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Loose games: Ed Miller disagrees with HEFAP
 

As SSHE states

"Loose is different from just plain bad"

Low states games are full of loose bad players

Higher stakes have alot more LAG's and people who play well once the flop has arrived.

Re: Loose games: Ed Miller disagrees with HEFAP
 

hepfab is wrong on this one as simulations and large internet poker databases have shown.

Re: Loose games: Ed Miller disagrees with HEFAP
 

happy birthday bro

Re: Loose games: Ed Miller disagrees with HEFAP
 

In the intro of SSHE it specifically says that comparing it to a book like HEFAP is basically a waste of time...

Re: Loose games: Ed Miller disagrees with HEFAP
 

HEFAP seems to assume semi-reasonable opponents who are limping things like suited connectors and ATo. SSH assumes opponents who limp in any raggy ace, king or queen, or any two sooooted, and who will call down with MPNK.

And even then, Miller doesn't recommend always raising. Read the whole section, including the footnote.

Re: Loose games: Ed Miller disagrees with HEFAP
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's one of the big mysteries of the universe. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I have read a few threads on here about the issue where MM chimes in but they go something like this:

2+2er: Why does SSH and HEPFAP have contridicting advice?
MM: They don't contridict.
2+2er: Clearly the two styles are very different.
MM: The games are different.
2+2er: But both say its for games where players play too many hands and go to far with them.
MM: But the games are different.
2+2er: Can you explain in detail what type of game you would use the HEPFAP style in?
MM: Ones where players play too many hands and go too far with them.
2+2er: Huh? I really don't see the difference.
MM: Sorry, I can't explain it any other way.

Good luck trying to figure it out. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
I detect a note of blasphemy. Watch yrself buddy! [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

Re: Loose games: Ed Miller disagrees with HEFAP
 

[ QUOTE ]
HEFAP seems to assume semi-reasonable opponents who are limping things like suited connectors and ATo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like your average small stakes online game... but I'm not about to start limping with AQ after a couple limpers or fold AJ in EP.

Re: Loose games: Ed Miller disagrees with HEFAP
 

Interesting that you bring this up, I just read that very section of HEPFAP last night, and was pondering the idea.

I think as UATrewqaz said:
[ QUOTE ]
As SSHE states

"Loose is different from just plain bad"

Low states games are full of loose bad players

Higher stakes have alot more LAG's and people who play well once the flop has arrived.

[/ QUOTE ]

So it relates in part to the post-flop ability of your opponents, and HEPFAP does seem to be aimed at higher stakes games than SSHE.

What Victor says is interesting though:
[ QUOTE ]
hepfab is wrong on this one as simulations and large internet poker databases have shown.

[/ QUOTE ]

And the gut feeling I had was the same. I just thought that I must be missing something because I don't feel like I have anywhere near enough poker knowledge/experience to be confident calling such texts wrong. I'm interested to look into these simulations further.


So, the crux of what I'm thinking is this:

Regardless of stakes, if you assume that opponents will make the same calls irrespective of the pot size, surely we want more money in the pot. Whether or not these opponents are making a mistake by calling does not adversely affect the likelihood of us winning the hand, so we want to win more bets when we win. Maybe I'm missing something but I think what I'm saying holds up SO LONG AS we win more pots than we lose with a given hand that we're applying this thinking to. With that in mind I guess we have to consider the positional starting ranges of the specific opponents we're faced with at the time, and try to judge whether we have a big enough edge against that range to win more times than we lose. If so, then raising seems to be the way to go.

Re: Loose games: Ed Miller disagrees with HEFAP
 

[ QUOTE ]
hepfab is wrong on this one as simulations and large internet poker databases have shown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmmmmm.... I don't put much weight in simulations (especially hot/cold simulations) and I don't trust large internet poker databases because they often contain a lot of BAD players in the samples, who play much differently than good (and even decent) players.

Re: Loose games: Ed Miller disagrees with HEFAP
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
hepfab is wrong on this one as simulations and large internet poker databases have shown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmmmmm.... I don't put much weight in simulations (especially hot/cold simulations) and I don't trust large internet poker databases because they often contain a lot of BAD players in the samples, who play much differently than good (and even decent) players.

[/ QUOTE ]

i am talking about simulations run by jalib and fekali and prock. you know those guys who trained a whole country to kill high stakes online poker?

im talking about databases from good players that have been disected on these boards.

Re: Loose games: Ed Miller disagrees with HEFAP
 

I would be interested in reading these sims if they're still around. I was looking for posev a bit of a while ago, and it seems to be gone. Do you know where I might find it archived? I found bits of it, but the discussion (message or something, I forget) to Sklansky regarding AQ, and the bit on pocket pairs preflop are of specific interest to me and I couldn't find them anywhere. I think it was all in "Playing with the Fish", but I'm not sure. Got the memory of a seive. I printed it all out ages ago, but some evil person spilled stuff all over it [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] I didn't reprint it after that, just read it once in a while, and I would kill to get copies of it. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Re: Loose games: Ed Miller disagrees with HEFAP
 

Disclaimer: my opinion follows, and I'm not always right. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

In a game where many people call with A2 or A7 or Q6s, AQ dominates. In a game where a weak A or weak Q will fold, or AJ or KQ will fold to a raise it's not as good. The former games represent loose micros, like in on-line poker. The latter represents games where games are a mite bit tighter or people play better post-flop, so the edge isn't as big.

I didn't even finish up my Pokertracker trial before I stopped using it, but it confirmed what I already knew--AJ and AQ were big winners for me, and I nearly always raise them pf from any position up through 3/6.

Re: Loose games: Ed Miller disagrees with HEFAP
 

The two books actually do agree on this principle, they just disagree how far one should take it.

HEFAP says sometimes you should limp AQ. SSH says not to limp AQ, but maybe hands like AJ/KQ/KJ. HEFAP says you might limp these hands after 3 or 4 limpers. SSH says this makes sense but if there are "a lot" of people in, "a lot" presumably being more than 3 or 4.

Re: Loose games: Ed Miller disagrees with HEFAP
 

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't even finish up my Pokertracker trial before I stopped using it, but it confirmed what I already knew--AJ and AQ were big winners for me, and I nearly always raise them pf from any position up through 3/6.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure that it didn't confirm anything.

Re: Loose games: Ed Miller disagrees with HEFAP
 

Was too small a sample size, yeah. I should say for that period of time they were winners, and they appear to be winners still, although I lack enough documentation to show it. I use StatKing for documentation, and it doesn't do hands.

Re: Loose games: Ed Miller disagrees with HEFAP
 

I usually try to stay out of the "Ed an NPA disagree on..." and "Ed contradicts himself" threads. Definitely -EV to participate.

But, once in a while, one finds a tidbit like this:

[ QUOTE ]
I use StatKing for documentation, and it doesn't do hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

I have to wonder what good this does you if it doesn't keep track of hands. Is it just giving you VPIP and PFR and the like?

Re: Loose games: Ed Miller disagrees with HEFAP
 

I can't find Izmet's stuff anymore. Abdul's stuff (or what's left of it) is here . Izmet used to be at http://slicer.headsupclub.com:3455/16/Changes .

Re: Loose games: Ed Miller disagrees with HEFAP
 

Ah, just makes me be honest over hourly rate. Doesn't do any of that other stuff. Database where I put in how many hours I played, where and what limits, and what I made or lost.

Re: Loose games: Ed Miller disagrees with HEFAP
 

Thank you.

I am so hoping that someone will have it sitting around on their computer somewhere. S'pose I'll print that before it disappears too [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]