Limp/calling with suited connector
 

$1K Masters ME level 2. Comments on my play? What do you think villain has?
Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, (10 handed) internettexasholdem.com

UTG+1 (t2080)
UTG+2 (t1265)
MP1 (t3305)
MP2 (t2455)
MP3 (t3260)
CO (t1510)
Hero (t3600)
SB (t2410)
BB (t2520)
UTG (t2585)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of t15.
UTG calls t30, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls t30, MP2 calls t30, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls t30, <font color="#CC3333">SB (poster) raises to t135</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls t105, Hero calls t105.

Flop: (t495) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets t190</font>, MP2 calls t190, Hero calls t190.

Turn: (t1065) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets t170</font>, MP2 folds, Hero calls t170.

River: (t1405) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets t100</font>, Hero calls t100.

Final Pot: t1605

Re: Limp/calling with suited connector
 

Raise the flop or raise the turn to find out where you are and take a free card/showdown.

People in big buyin tournaments make a lot more laydowns than normally.

Re: Limp/calling with suited connector
 

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Raise the flop or raise the turn to find out where you are and take a free card/showdown.

People in big buyin tournaments make a lot more laydowns than normally.

[/ QUOTE ]

If villian is on air (i.e. overs), don't we want to give him a chance to bluff at the pot? He is already giving himself bad odds to continue the hand so we don't need to raise if we think he will keep firing. This is WA/WB IMO.

Re: Limp/calling with suited connector
 

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Raise the flop or raise the turn to find out where you are and take a free card/showdown.

People in big buyin tournaments make a lot more laydowns than normally.

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I had a pretty good read on what villain had.

Re: Limp/calling with suited connector
 

I think I want to raise this turn. We are probably ahead but there are some potential draws out there. Even if he has two overs you are letting his bet give himself pretty close to decent odds to draw out.

Raising to 900ish feels right.

Re: Limp/calling with suited connector
 

I tend to stay from marginal situations like this early on in a tournament.

Re: Limp/calling with suited connector
 

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Raise the flop or raise the turn to find out where you are and take a free card/showdown.

People in big buyin tournaments make a lot more laydowns than normally.

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How big a buy-in we talking here? Just curious since I ran into some serious donkeys at the $100+9 buy ins yesterday.

Re: Limp/calling with suited connector
 

I like preflop, pretty standard for me. With 3 limpers I might raise the pot to 5-6x the BB, but as played works too.

It seems as if you put the SB on AK. Which makes sense of course. But if the pot got bigger, would you really be content going to the felt with 2nd pair? For example, if he got some balls and actually bet 700 on the turn, do you call?

If you feel (with reads) that you can keep the pot small against this villian then I like the check/call approach fine. But without reads, and the fact taht MP1 is coming along with a draw (J-Q maybe?) or some overcards makes me want to raise the pot on the flop or fold. So many turn cards would scare me and would make playing the hand much more difficult.

Again, with reads it's all different, but I would generally raise the flop.

Brad

Re: Limp/calling with suited connector
 

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Raise the flop or raise the turn to find out where you are and take a free card/showdown.

People in big buyin tournaments make a lot more laydowns than normally.

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If villian is on air (i.e. overs), don't we want to give him a chance to bluff at the pot? He is already giving himself bad odds to continue the hand so we don't need to raise if we think he will keep firing. This is WA/WB IMO.

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In tournament settings, odds don't matter nearly as much because when you lose a huge chunk of chips, your ability to regain them lessens. If you have a million chips in front of you, you can play speculative hands. If you have 100 chips in front of you, it's allin or fold.

Raise the flop to find out where you are and/or get out hands that you're vulnerable to. If he raises you, you're out. If he folds, you just picked up a nice pot.

Re: Limp/calling with suited connector
 

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I like preflop, pretty standard for me. With 3 limpers I might raise the pot to 5-6x the BB, but as played works too.

It seems as if you put the SB on AK. Which makes sense of course. But if the pot got bigger, would you really be content going to the felt with 2nd pair? For example, if he got some balls and actually bet 700 on the turn, do you call?

If you feel (with reads) that you can keep the pot small against this villian then I like the check/call approach fine. But without reads, and the fact taht MP1 is coming along with a draw (J-Q maybe?) or some overcards makes me want to raise the pot on the flop or fold. So many turn cards would scare me and would make playing the hand much more difficult.

Again, with reads it's all different, but I would generally raise the flop.

Brad

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After the turn bet, I was pretty sure villain had what I thought he had after the preflop raise, and it wasn't AK.

Re: Limp/calling with suited connector
 

AA gewd.

i like the way you played it. you're likely up against an overpair and you're getting a nice price to hit a 5-outer that could take a bunch of chips off of him. river call is fine - he has AK 1/15 of the time...

Re: Limp/calling with suited connector
 

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Raise the flop or raise the turn to find out where you are and take a free card/showdown.

People in big buyin tournaments make a lot more laydowns than normally.

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Considering how small villain's bets are, why do we want to raise? He's giving us a cheap showdown, and we've got a very marginal hand.

Re: Limp/calling with suited connector
 

Line is fine, but I like raising that board on the turn for a free card... but considering it looks like you want to go to showdown cheap I understand

Villain has either unpaired Big Ace or Small Overpair which he is playing weak OOP with a rapidly coordinating board...

Re: Limp/calling with suited connector
 

Everyone who says raise the turn for a free card: what does that mean? Calling's obviously the cheapest way to see the last card.

Re: Limp/calling with suited connector
 

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Everyone who says raise the turn for a free card: what does that mean? Calling's obviously the cheapest way to see the last card.

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My guess is that they mean that the villian will maybe check on the turn?

Brad

Re: Limp/calling with suited connector
 

This thread sucks.

Betgo, if you knew what he had, why are you posting this hand? And why are you not telling us your read? And why, if you knew what he had, were you calling the turn and river? If you knew what he had you should have either been raising or folding.

Re: Limp/calling with suited connector
 

Any reads other than "tell me what villian has"? Kind of hard on just want we have.

I like the way you played it, I want to keep the pot small with this holding and it appears that villian is doing that for us with his very small bets. If villian had been prone to 2/3 to pot sized bets, a raise on the turn to get to a free showdown would get more consideration from me.

Without reads, I have a very hard time telling you exactly what he has. I'll guess missed overs first (AK, AQ most likely) and mid pocket pair like 88 second.

Re: Limp/calling with suited connector
 

I generally fold the flop, more because of MP2 than anything else. Turn and river I agree with.

Congrats btw.

Re: Limp/calling with suited connector
 

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Betgo, if you knew what he had, why are you posting this hand? And why are you not telling us your read? And why, if you knew what he had, were you calling the turn and river? If you knew what he had you should have either been raising or folding.

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This isn't true. If raising the turn/flop folds out a garbage hand that will bluff the later streets, raising's wrong.

Re: Limp/calling with suited connector
 

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This isn't true. If raising the turn/flop folds out a garbage hand that will bluff the later streets, raising's wrong.

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True, as long as the garbage hand has no outs.

Re: Limp/calling with suited connector
 

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I generally fold the flop, more because of MP2 than anything else. Turn and river I agree with.

Congrats btw.

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Re: Limp/calling with suited connector
 

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AA gewd.

i like the way you played it. you're likely up against an overpair and you're getting a nice price to hit a 5-outer that could take a bunch of chips off of him. river call is fine - he has AK 1/15 of the time...

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When villain raised to 4.5xBB at 4 limpers from the blinds, I thought he had a big pair. Notice that the two early position limpers folded, maybe with that read. I figured I would call with the suited gapper anyway.

I don't know if I should have called the flop bet, but I felt I was priced in. I thought it was possible I ahead.

When villain bet 1/6 pot on the turn, I was pretty sure he had an overpair, thought he was ahead, and was hoping to get raised. I thought AQ/AK would check or make a real attempt to take the pot. I figured I had 9 outs and would get paid off if I hit. In case I was ahead, calling was good to.

As to why I called the river, if I knew what he had, I was getting 15-1 pot odds that I was wrong.

Villain showed QQ. You just have to understand how slow playing donks think.

All you who would have donked off a big part of your stack raising to figure out villain had an overpair, that's why I made the final table and you didn't. &lt;/arrogance&gt;

Re: Limp/calling with suited connector
 

I call BS, results-oriented bragging.

Re: Limp/calling with suited connector
 

betgo, your play's a lot better than your explanation.

Re: Limp/calling with suited connector
 

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I call BS, results-oriented bragging.

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I thought villain probably had an overpair on the turn. I figured calling the small bet was best whether I was ahead or not.

Re: Limp/calling with suited connector
 

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I call BS, results-oriented bragging.

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I thought villain probably had an overpair on the turn. I figured calling the small bet was best whether I was ahead or not.

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betgo...

since you've thought out this line a bit... I have three questions

A) did villain do this betting sequence once before (big raise, 1/2pt, 1/5 pt 1/10th pt) that tipped you off or was it a more intuitive read?
B) how much would you value bet on the river if you hit your nine outer?
C) How much would you expect him to call if you raised on the river...

I obviously have some thoughts on B and C and I am looking to see how you would handle it...

Re: Limp/calling with suited connector
 

If you knew he had an overpair, why not bluff at the one card straight on the river?? You did limp, and called the whole way, its not inconceivable you have an 8 in your hand.

Even if you do get called its going to set you up for some looser calls later when you have a big hand.

Re: Limp/calling with suited connector
 

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If you knew he had an overpair, why not bluff at the one card straight on the river?? You did limp, and called the whole way, its not inconceivable you have an 8 in your hand.

Even if you do get called its going to set you up for some looser calls later when you have a big hand.

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That might have been a good play. Didn't think of it at the time. I limp called, so I was likely to have a suited connector of pp in the range of the board. Villain raised, so he probably has JJ+, AQ+. The bluff could represent a straight, but I could also have 2 pair or a set.

There is a question whether villain would fold an overpair here. His small bets seem donkish. However, someone who small bets may be weak/tight and people has shown no hesitancy about folding at this level of the tournament. In general, the tournament was weak/tight, rather than the overly loose aggressive / calling station style of lower buyins, including the 2nd hour of the $30 rebuy.

You would need to risk a significant chunk of your stack to bluff the river, but it is probably a good play.

By contrast, I think raising the turn, as some people have suggested, is awful. On the turn, if you are behind, you are drawing to 9 outs, which are probably all good, and you will probably get paid off some if you hit. In this situation if you raised the turn, villain would probably push and force you to fold. If you are ahead, the raise might win you a pot you would probably win anyway. If villain had more than an overpair, he would call or raise and you just lose chips.

Re: Limp/calling with suited connector
 

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Without reads, I have a very hard time telling you exactly what he has. I'll guess missed overs first (AK, AQ most likely) and mid pocket pair like 88 second.

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This is the problem with betgo calling a raise on the turn "awful." These holdings, IMHO, are more likely then overpairs once the turn bet comes. The fact that betgo was right, and wanted to brag about it, doesn't mean that if you get away from his results-oriented bragging, villain's range after his turn bet doesn't call for a turn raise.

If villain's hand is more likely AK, AQ, or 88 then overpairs then not raising the turn is "awful."

Re: Limp/calling with suited connector
 

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Without reads, I have a very hard time telling you exactly what he has. I'll guess missed overs first (AK, AQ most likely) and mid pocket pair like 88 second.

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This is the problem with betgo calling a raise on the turn "awful." These holdings, IMHO, are more likely then overpairs once the turn bet comes. The fact that betgo was right, and wanted to brag about it, doesn't mean that if you get away from his results-oriented bragging, villain's range after his turn bet doesn't call for a turn raise.

If villain's hand is more likely AK, AQ, or 88 then overpairs then not raising the turn is "awful."

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If villain has AK, AQ, 88, or a similar hand, he probably won't connect on the river and you can call or check behind on the river. Since villain has been making small bets so far, there is no reason to think he will make a big bluff on the river.

When villain raised 4.5xBB at 4 limpers from the blinds, I immediately suspected a big pair. However, I didn't mind playing the suited gapper in position 3-way against a likely AA-QQ, with AK/AQ or a middle pp also possible.

I really thought he probably had an overpair and that I was better off drawing to 9 outs than making a raise which would be called or reraised.

Re: Limp/calling with suited connector
 

betgo,

Would you agree that if we KNOW that villain has AK, AQ, or 88 we must raise the turn?

Re: Limp/calling with suited connector
 

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betgo,

Would you agree that if we KNOW that villain has AK, AQ, or 88 we must raise the turn?

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If we knew that, I might still call and call a bluff on the river. He doesn't have that many outs with those hands.

I wouldn't interpret the tiny bet on the turn as weakness. There wouldn't be a lot of point in making that tiny bet with AK/AQ or 88. There is a reasonable possibility of a set, as well as an overpair, based on the hands villain would raise with preflop.

Re: Limp/calling with suited connector
 

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betgo,

Would you agree that if we KNOW that villain has AK, AQ, or 88 we must raise the turn?

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If we knew that, I might still call and call a bluff on the river. He doesn't have that many outs with those hands.

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I'm not going to argue with you about the read, but I'm pretty shocked that you prefer to give a free card on the turn to a villain that you know you are ahead of and that you know has 6-14 outs.

Re: Limp/calling with suited connector
 

Noah said it best. We have a speculative hand. Why would we want to raise here? Villain is giving us a chance to get to a showdown fairly cheaply, so that is precicely what we should be doing.

I fold the flop here more often than not. I'm not sure overcalling has much value here. A play like this is much more +EV when HU. The caller in between changes everything and severely kills your equity (i.e., more of a chance you're already beat and more of a chance you GET beat on the turn).

Given your flop call, I agree that calling down is the best way to go.

Betgo - I also found your reasoning to be somewhat... I don't know... illogical. First off, how did you get such a strong read that Villain was on an overpair as opposed to overcards (I would never have thought this guy had QQ after his turn bet, by the way). Seems too much like a results-oriented pat on the back. Something's awry.

Re: Limp/calling with suited connector
 

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Noah said it best. We have a speculative hand. Why would we want to raise here? Villain is giving us a chance to get to a showdown fairly cheaply, so that is precicely what we should be doing.

I fold the flop here more often than not. I'm not sure overcalling has much value here. A play like this is much more +EV when HU. The caller in between changes everything and severely kills your equity (i.e., more of a chance you're already beat and more of a chance you GET beat on the turn).

Given your flop call, I agree that calling down is the best way to go.

Betgo - I also found your reasoning to be somewhat... I don't know... illogical. First off, how did you get such a strong read that Villain was on an overpair as opposed to overcards (I would never have thought this guy had QQ after his turn bet, by the way). Seems too much like a results-oriented pat on the back. Something's awry.

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I don't know if the overcall of the flop bet was good. I was getting 4.5-1 pot odds to call the small bet. I figured I was ahead or had 5 outs.

I don't like raising the turn at all. It is generall not good to raise with medium strength hands like this. If I had top pair plus an open ended, it might be right to play it very strongly. If I had nothing, it might be reasonable to try to bluff following the weak bet.

With second pair plus a gutshot, I am better hoping to hit one of nine outs or win a showdown. If I raise, hands that are ahead are likely to call or reraise and hands that are behind are likely to fold.

Raising the river is a reasonable play, since I could easily get top pair or an overpair to fold on the dangerous board. I think the only reasonable plays on the river are calling and making a substantial raise. Folding or making a small raise are bad.

Re: Limp/calling with suited connector
 

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I call BS, results-oriented bragging.

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I thought villain probably had an overpair on the turn. I figured calling the small bet was best whether I was ahead or not.

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betgo...

since you've thought out this line a bit... I have three questions

A) did villain do this betting sequence once before (big raise, 1/2pt, 1/5 pt 1/10th pt) that tipped you off or was it a more intuitive read?
B) how much would you value bet on the river if you hit your nine outer?
C) How much would you expect him to call if you raised on the river...

I obviously have some thoughts on B and C and I am looking to see how you would handle it...

[/ QUOTE ]
I wasn't sure villain had an overpair. The small raise from the blinds at limpers set off red flags. The small bets were also consitant with the way a lot of people play overpairs. I see this a lot where people slow play the big pair the whole way like it's the nuts. It's not the way I play, but you see it a lot. So I wasn't sure of an overpair, but I was suspicious of one.