An unpleasant overcall.
 

Six max table. I've been tighter than a drum these past 40 hands as I've been dealt total crap. Table's pretty LAGgy, 45/16 or so on average, but maybe that's typical for 6max I dunno.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP calls, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls, MP calls, CO calls.

Flop: (11 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, UTG folds, MP calls, CO folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (10.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, MP calls, Hero calls.

River: (13.50 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, MP calls, Hero...

Hey I made my fl--crap. Big pot, but (a) I'm overcalling on a double paired board, and (b) against a check/3-better preflop, which seeing as I know where the top four flush cards are doesn't bode well for me.

Three-bettor's nothing special but a bit more passive than he should be postflop. Caller here is very loose preflop (though only 15 PFR) and pretty aggro, near maniac. Bother calling here?

Edit: Bonus question to ponder. If you're folding, how big would you want the pot to be before you called here? Say it's still 3 handed to the river; the dead money folded earlier.

Re: An unpleasant overcall.
 

I think your flop raise blows chunks out of my ass.
I'm folding that river getting anything up to around 20:1.

Re: An unpleasant overcall.
 

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I think your flop raise blows chunks out of my ass.

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Not trying for a free card here?

Re: An unpleasant overcall.
 

we want 1 pair hands to stick around on this flop, and we dont wanna destroy our implied odds on later streets.

that said i dont hate the flop raise, purely for equity pumping... as it opens us up to be able to cap the flop even 3way with luck. wait. why didn you cap the flop??

anyway turn is fine, river is a fold

edit: oh and i think i want at least 35-40BB in the pot to call?

Re: An unpleasant overcall.
 

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I think your flop raise blows chunks out of my ass.

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Not trying for a free card here?

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Not when I'm at a laggy table where I may not get it and I have to face 2 other players behind me with 2 cold. You want overcallers.

Re: An unpleasant overcall.
 

I call, hoping to god he just made his flush. These guys both sound pretty crazy, so I figure I just might win this a little bit more often than usual with that board &amp; action. I would certainly call 15BB here, given your description of the players. One bet for 15, and the chance one could be betting something like 88 and the other calling with a flush draw? I'm in.

If they were normally calmer or more sane, I'd want more like, um, 20?

Re: An unpleasant overcall.
 

I'd want 20 BBs to call this.

Re: An unpleasant overcall.
 

the only holdings that make sense to me are:
MP: 2 clubs &gt; Qx (he but should have raised the turn then) &gt; Ax (he should have raised the river then)
SB: 66 or Ax (explains call PF &amp; donk bet on flop) &gt;&gt; Qx (far less likely, but he might have tried to probe you on the flop and get rid of MP)

Given these holdings, you are ALWAYS beaten by SB and SOMETIMES beaten by MP (with Qx, but quite unlikely). To me this basically boils down to how likely you think SB is bluffing. 30-40 BB seems to be a good minimum.

Thomas

P.S. Why didn't you cap the flop?

Re: An unpleasant overcall.
 

I gave this a second thought:

I was thinking of "plausible" hands for SB to justify his action:

a) JTs
PF: calling 2 bets from SB with 4 players already in might be possible (paying 1.5 SB to see a 12 SB pot)

Flop: he can't protect his gutshot laying 12:1 so he checks / it's 15:2 (7.5:1) back to him, needing 14.3:1 for his 3 outer (actually a bit more than 3 outs for runner runner 98); he might think he gets 2 BB on each street from MP and you, so calling would be right, but in order to get rid of any flush draws behind him he raises to protect / nobody caps so no AA; KK (he needs a king!) or QQ out there =&gt; important for later streets

Turn: now he's stuck, but the pot is really juicy so he might try a bluff, because he puts the others on 1 pair at best (no capping).

River: same thing

b) 2 clubs (preferably connectors)
PF: calling 2 bets from SB with 4 players already in might be possible (paying 1.5 SB to see a 12 SB pot)

Flop: Maybe he wants to c/r to get better flush draws out? I'm not saying this is a good idea, but who knows what this guy is thinking?

Turn: Bets to see if someone caught trip queens? Maybe wants to show strength in this big pot?

River: Got his flush and bets.

I am NOT saying that this guy made a perfect play with these hands. All I was trying to do is find some hands that MIGHT justify his actions.

So here are 2 reasons for calling this river:
1. He might have played as described above (this has to be correct around 7% of the times, so it might be worth a gamble).
2. A psychological reason. There's one caller so the hands will be shown for sure (at least the one from SB). Since you'll see the cards you cannot "console" yourself that this guy had you beat. You might actually see SB bluffing (or at least losing) and possibly MP winning with a lower flush than yours (you got the nut flush!). Personally I'd get over losing 1 BB more in this big pot much better than folding the winning hand.

Comments please!

Am I taking this too far? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Thomas

Re: An unpleasant overcall.
 

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I think your flop raise blows chunks out of my ass.

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Not trying for a free card here?

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Not when I'm at a laggy table where I may not get it and I have to face 2 other players behind me with 2 cold. You want overcallers.

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i gotta disagree with you here.

2 people are in. 2 people are yet to act. simply calling gets us 2 more sb if they both call. raising gets us 2sb since the 2 who are already in will never fold.

but the table is laggy, so people might just call 2 cold, or someone might 3-bet letting us cap. i want to give them that chance and build a huge pot.

Re: An unpleasant overcall.
 

This is a fold. What do you think MP1 has here? AKQJ6 of clubs are out of the deck, I doubt that he calls the river with anything worse than a FH here.

I don't really care about SB, he could bet here with just about anything, I'm more concerned about MP1 who called the 3-bet on the flop...

Re: An unpleasant overcall.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think your flop raise blows chunks out of my ass.

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Not trying for a free card here?

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Not when I'm at a laggy table where I may not get it and I have to face 2 other players behind me with 2 cold. You want overcallers.

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i gotta disagree with you here.

2 people are in. 2 people are yet to act. simply calling gets us 2 more sb if they both call. raising gets us 2sb since the 2 who are already in will never fold.

but the table is laggy, so people might just call 2 cold, or someone might 3-bet letting us cap. i want to give them that chance and build a huge pot.

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Good point - I see I post about as well as I play at 3am.

Re: An unpleasant overcall.
 

I'm trying to remember what my mode of thinking was on the flop. I was partially looking for an edge push with my raise, as well as a free card; wasn't sure if it'd be strictly for value but with the chance of a free card adding to it I figured what the hell.

The check/3bet worried me. Dude's a bit too passive to be doing that with a lower draw, so it smelled either of 66 or an A high draw (he was aggro enough preflop to 3bet AA/QQ PF). Either way my equity just went down quite a bit; either my flush draw's a loser or I'm up against a ten-outer even if I hit on the turn. Probably MUBS on my part but SB's raise rather jostled me.

I called the river; probably a full 1BB mistake. Stupid Eeegah. SB had 66, MP had a Q.

Anyway, there's my most embarrasing hand of the night [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: An unpleasant overcall.
 

I fold the river. we're rarely good.

Re: An unpleasant overcall.
 

Good analysis on the raise. My first thought was 20 BB's to call this river -- probably much more at a less LAGGY table.

Re: An unpleasant overcall.
 

Grunch.

Cap the flop. Fold the river. May Ed Miller have mercy on my soul but if I'm not beat here, I don't know when I'm ever going to be. MP could have nothing much but SB has to have hit the flop with your read.

What odds would I want to call it? A big enough pot would have meant more action on flop and turn, so I'd be even surer I was beat here. But I don't think I'd ever fold a pot, even if I was absolutely sure I was beaten, that offered 20 to 1 for a single bet.

Re: An unpleasant overcall.
 

Grunch:

Well if "Three-bettor's nothing special but a bit more passive than he should be postflop" i dont really see what your possible flush beats on the turn, that villain might have? What would he 3 bet on the flop? AQ? 66? nut FD? Would you consider him doing this with some Ax or low FD?

If not, then i dont realy see a reason to call the turn. MUBS? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] If you think he would be doing this with some random Ax or lower FD sometimes, then call the turn and fold this river.