AA on Nasty Board
 

Party Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.50/$1
8 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (8 players) Shalara is MP2 with A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG calls, 2 folds, <font color="red">Shalara raises</font>, 3 folds, <font color="red">BB 3-bets</font>, UTG calls, <font color="red">Shalara caps</font>, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (18.5SB, 3 players)
BB checks, <font color="red">UTG bets</font>, Shalara calls, BB calls.

Turn: 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (10.75BB, 3 players)
BB checks, <font color="red">UTG bets</font>, <font color="red">Shalara raises</font>, BB calls, UTG calls.

River: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (16.75BB, 3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Shalara ???

Results:
Final pot: 16.75BB

**Reads**

UTG--a little loose preflop, a little loose postflop, but nothing to write home about. Have seen c/rs from him, though he's usually pretty straightforward

BB--Pretty good, I'd almost call him a TAG but he sometimes backs down when pushed. Gets a little shy, you know? Preflop is by the book perfect

**Though my question is specifically about the river, I'd appreciate comments on all streets.

Re: AA on Nasty Board
 

*Grunch*

Check? BB has been acting mighty suspiiicious and the board is too risky to bet I think.

Re: AA on Nasty Board
 

What are you trying to accomplish on the turn that wouldn't be accomplished by raising the flop? I'd be pleasantly surprised here if someone didn't have at least one heart, but I'm not betting against it. Check behind on the river.

Re: AA on Nasty Board
 

I was thinking to keep the pot smaller so it would be more of an error for flush draws to call on the turn.

Re: AA on Nasty Board
 

I like all streets so far. Check behind on the river.

Re: AA on Nasty Board
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was thinking to keep the pot smaller so it would be more of an error for flush draws to call on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's almost always correct for flush draws to call bets in limit. I think raise the flop and go from there.

As for the river, it's close, but I probably check.

Re: AA on Nasty Board
 

How small of a heart would you need to have to fold a 3-flush board regardless of the odds?

Re: AA on Nasty Board
 

That is a really good question, and I'm glad you mentioned it. In this case, I don't know if UTG will fold a small heart or not. I think he might if presented with a large enough bet, though I don't see him tossing a face.

BB isn't giving me this kind of action pf with anything small--he's a by-the-book kind of guy, so I can put him on QQ-AA or AK every time. If he has a heart, he's not budging. If he doesn't, he's probably still calling a river bet.

So my raise is an attempt to knock out UTG here if he happens to hold a heart. I don't know if this was a good idea in this case, which is another reason I posted this hand, so I'm glad to get any feedback on this.

Re: AA on Nasty Board
 

*Grunch*

Raise the flop and check the river.

Re: AA on Nasty Board
 

Fine so far.

I check behind on the river.

Re: AA on Nasty Board
 

With the pot this big, there's no way to protect against the flush draw, so I'd raise the flop as a value bet. I like the turn.

No way I bet this river. It's very likely that one of the two has a heart and my bet into a 16.75 BB pot isn't going to frighten anyone. Worst case is that we get check-raised. How does our bet win any money? Is anyone without a heart going to call?

Re: AA on Nasty Board
 

No, the pot is so big that the flush draw already has the right odds to call on the turn by the flop. Just get more money in here because you're ahead right now.

Re: AA on Nasty Board
 

*Grunch*

I would check the river, the rest looks good.

Re: AA on Nasty Board
 

Bet/fold. If someone has a flush and is straightforward he is going to lead out. UTG probably hit a J on the flop and was pushing for info. BB has QQ, KK or some pair, if raised he probably has a K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. You might even represent the A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] to them and they fold.

Re: AA on Nasty Board
 

Check behind. You arent getting any flush to fold and its very unlikely that your opponents are going to call if they dont have you beat. So a raise here accomplishes nothing but throwing money away when you are beat.

Re: AA on Nasty Board
 

:grunch: Raise the flop, it's unlikely anyone has a heart so you probably have the best hand and a small heart might even be folded. Check the river behind, there can easily be a heart.

Re: AA on Nasty Board
 

No shame in checking here. HU I might bet but 3 way there's more than likely someone's got a heart and it only takes one.

Re: AA on Nasty Board
 

Unrelated to the topic question:

I keep seeing *grunch* everywhere. What does it mean?

Re: AA on Nasty Board
 

[ QUOTE ]
I keep seeing *grunch* everywhere. What does it mean?

[/ QUOTE ]

It means people are responding to the original post without reading any of the replies. It's done so that later discussion on the hand doesn't affect the poster's first reaction, and is a good way to get some experience in evaluating situations.

Re: AA on Nasty Board
 

Ah, thanks.

Re: AA on Nasty Board
 

I think that this may actually be a situation where raising the turn has more value than the flop. Seems more likely that someone will throw away a small heart when faced with a double turn bet (Edit: scratch this. if UTG bets into you again with a single low heart, he's not likely to fold when you raise him, and BB is very unlikely to have a small heart if he is as straightforward as we think), and versus the tricky but cautious BB you disguise your hand a whole lot better, where a flop raise screams AA or KK with a possible heart. He isn't folding a heart in any case, so you may as well get an extra half-bet from him on the turn when he doesn't have a heart and then goes into call down mode. About the only hand he'll play like this and fold the turn is AK-no heart, any high pp he's probably sticking around. That said he appears to have a high pocket pair, with or without a heart, or AKheart. No heart is folding now, we have a good showdown hand, It would suck to be check/raised, I'd check the river.

Re: AA on Nasty Board
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was thinking to keep the pot smaller so it would be more of an error for flush draws to call on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

no. if you're not raising the flop it is because when the turn is a non-heart your equity goes way up.

forget about making them make errors and focus on what is the best move -for you-.