Omnipotence Doesn\'t Imply Seeing The Future.
 

Not if you(the omnipotent one) are included in that future. Its similar to building a rock you can't lift.

Also the inability to see the future perfectly does NOT mean that you can't guarantee your own promses.

If the above two statements don't have a logical flaw that I missed, I hope religious people realize that it is good for them even if their first inclination is otherwise. See why?

Re: Omnipotence Doesn\'t Imply Seeing The Future.
 

Omniscience does though.

Edit: Just to expand on that, I think what you're saying is that the reason your future acts as an omnipotent being must be included for uncertainty is that otherwise present knowledge would allow perfect prediction based on causality. That's not quite right though - if an omniscient being's actions were reactionist then they couldn't be omnipotent, so there can be no emergent reason for future action. You wouldn't build a rock you can't lift, because that'd be a failure of knowledge. Please correct me if I've misunderstood.

Re: Omnipotence Doesn\'t Imply Seeing The Future.
 

David, some people think an omnipotent God could make a stone too big for him to lift. These people chalk it up to mystery as to how this is possible. These people think God can make logical impossibilities be true and even that he can be a logical impossibility himself. For these people omnipotence really means you have the power to see the future even if seeing the future is impossible.

However, more reasonable people take omnipotence to mean God can do everything that is possible. If it is possible to have the power of knowing the future then God has that power. If it is not possible then God does not have that power.

So David, do you think knowing the future is possible? If you think it is possible then this is inconsistent with the title of your post. Omnipotence itself doesn't imply seeing the future; but omnipotence in a world where seeing the future is possible entails knowledge of the future in the omnipotent thing.

Re: Omnipotence Doesn\'t Imply Seeing The Future.
 

The only way I can fathom a Creator knowing the future is if He knew/created the initial state of all things, and knew all the forumlas that govern nature, and could therefore use His model to accurately predict the future. This is possible and is a string of philosophic thought in Judaism, but it implies (obviously) that God is not active in our lives.

Re: Omnipotence Doesn\'t Imply Seeing The Future.
 

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Not if you(the omnipotent one) are included in that future. Its similar to building a rock you can't lift.

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The logical flaw in this is that you are putting a limitation on a being defined to have no limits. That is what omnipotence means. If you want to posit a god who is limited in any manner in potential, then omnipotence is not an attribute of such a god.

Furthermore, even though God permeates His Creation, and thus exists in our time, He is not limited by the constrainst of physics with regards to time. For Him there is no limitation of time's arrow, but a great eternal now, in which both ourselves and those who lived and died thousands of years ago from our perspective are all before Him in the present.

Re: Omnipotence Doesn\'t Imply Seeing The Future.
 

Though I believe this particular argument fails on logical terms anyway - to interpret the omni powers as not being bound by logic and causality is reasonable.

It's somewhat superfluous though, because if you do this, there is no point in discussing the existence of god at all, or any powers he could or couldn't have (which is most of the reason why I'm agnostic).

Re: Omnipotence Doesn\'t Imply Seeing The Future.
 

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Not if you(the omnipotent one) are included in that future. Its similar to building a rock you can't lift.

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The logical flaw in this is that you are putting a limitation on a being defined to have no limits. That is what omnipotence means. If you want to posit a god who is limited in any manner in potential, then omnipotence is not an attribute of such a god.


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Maybe not, it could be your conception of omnipotence is incoherent or that in creating a temporal universe, god chose to create a situation in which the future cannot be seen.

chez

Re: Omnipotence Doesn\'t Imply Seeing The Future.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Not if you(the omnipotent one) are included in that future. Its similar to building a rock you can't lift.

Also the inability to see the future perfectly does NOT mean that you can't guarantee your own promses. Also you dont need to see the future when in a sense you are the future.

If the above two statements don't have a logical flaw that I missed, I hope religious people realize that it is good for them even if their first inclination is otherwise. See why?

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Im prety sure theologians would argue that God exists in all times at once, as a single instance. Also you dont need to "see" the future when you are in a sense the future itself.

A Philosopher called Kierkegaard discussed greatly the paradox of God exisiting both in and out of time.

Re: Omnipotence Doesn\'t Imply Seeing The Future.
 

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Maybe not, it could be your conception of omnipotence is incoherent

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This is a matter of definition not conception.

"omni"<>limited

Re: Omnipotence Doesn\'t Imply Seeing The Future.
 

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Maybe not, it could be your conception of omnipotence is incoherent

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This is a matter of definition not conception.

"omni"<>limited

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Not all definitions are coherent, if I define a bircle as a circle but with PI=3 then a bircle is incoherent. Similarly your idea of onmipotent looks incoherent.

chez

Re: Omnipotence Doesn\'t Imply Seeing The Future.
 

omnipotent's definition is all-powerfull. There is no limitation to "all", and sophistical arguments to the contrary won't change that. David used that term, and your BS is exactly the same as if he had specified a god who was green in color, and then your trying to redefine/ambiguize "green".

Re: Omnipotence Doesn\'t Imply Seeing The Future.
 

[ QUOTE ]
omnipotent's definition is all-powerfull. There is no limitation to "all", and sophistical arguments to the contrary won't change that. David used that term, and your BS is exactly the same as if he had specified a god who was green in color, and then your trying to redefine/ambiguize "green".

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I think you misunderstand me. The analogy with green wouldn't be about redefining green but whether god could be green and not at all green at the same time.

chez

Re: Omnipotence Doesn\'t Imply Seeing The Future.
 

No, it would be about specifiying him to be all green, and only then saying he is both all green and not all green at the same time. If you use the word "all" but then try to limit it, then you need to find another word.

Re: Omnipotence Doesn\'t Imply Seeing The Future.
 

[ QUOTE ]
No, it would be about specifiying him to be all green, and only then saying he is both all green and not all green at the same time. If you use the word "all" but then try to limit it, then you need to find another word.

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If by all powerful you are trying to claim that god can make both p and ~p true at the same time then that is incoherent.

Or you can use the word 'all' in a way that makes sense.

chez

Re: Omnipotence Doesn\'t Imply Seeing The Future.
 

LOL. You are the one defining it that way, both p and ~p at the same time. Either that are you are saying it doesn't make sense that p is p. I'm through with this.

Re: Omnipotence Doesn\'t Imply Seeing The Future.
 

[ QUOTE ]
LOL. You are the one defining it that way, both p and ~p at the same time. Either that are you are saying it doesn't make sense that p is p. I'm through with this.

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No I'm saying an omnipotent god cant do this. Hence there are things that can be said that god cannot do. Hence you cant dismiss DS's argument as simply as you tried to do.

chez

Re: Omnipotence Doesn\'t Imply Seeing The Future.
 

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Not if you(the omnipotent one) are included in that future. Its similar to building a rock you can't lift.


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I am not sure what this means? In what sense can someone who is omnipotent not predict the future. Any test of being able to predict the future has to do with predicting it. Anything the omnipotent person predicts will occur (because he can make it occur). If that isn't seeing the future I dont know what is.

Re: Omnipotence Doesn\'t Imply Seeing The Future.
 

I see why, but I leave open the possibility that an omnipotent being might be able to somehow inhabit these paradoxes (immovable objects/irresistable force) in a way which escapes human understanding. That said, since my understanding is, in fact, human, I would expect that you are right, and God's kingdom is a logical one.

Re: Omnipotence Doesn\'t Imply Seeing The Future.
 

David, i think the problem lies with this in that when you say "Seeing The Future" you are talking about something that is unknown to us, not God.

Definition Future: In a linear conception of time, the future is the portion of the timeline that is still to occur , i.e. the place in space-time where lie all events that still have not occurred. In this sense the future is opposed to the past (the set of moments and events that have already occurred) and the present (the set of events that are occurring now).

In my studies on religion I believe that God has a plan for my life. It is already set. Do i know what is going to happen? I am going to continue to work as an engineer, will i marry again, will i ever make money as a poker player? these things are already planned. God knows because it is his plan for me, but i do not... it is my future.

Further Reading... linky Some people love to attack this conception of God because they believe there is a logical flaw in it. One of the classic questions that is asked of students in Philosophy 101, in Introduction to Ethics, or in courses on Logic or in the field of Physics known as Quantum Mechanics, is this one:

Can God make a rock so big that even God can’t move it?
Think about that for a moment; it’s a tricky question. If you answer “yes, God can make such a rock,” then you’re going to have to explain why God’s inability to move the rock doesn’t constitute a lack of omnipotence. If, on the other hand, you’re going to say “no, God can’t make a rock so big that even God can’t move it,” then you’re again forced into explaining why God’s inability to make such a rock doesn’t constitute a lack of omnipotence. Ouch!

Yes, this is a tricky question ... it is tricky because it is a trick question. The question is designed to pit God’s omnipotence against itself in a contradictory framework of creation and manipulation. It is specifically designed to try and invalidate omnipotence altogether by forcing God to work at least two contradictory and competing actions at the same time.



God is Omnipotent

Definition:

The attribute of God which describes his ability to do whatever He wills. God's will is limited by His nature, and He therefore cannot do anything contrary to His nature as God, such as to ignore sin, to sin, or to do something absurd or self-contradictory. God is not controlled by His power, but has complete control over it; otherwise He would not be a free being. To a certain extent, He has voluntarily limited Himself by the free will of His rational creatures.

Meaning:

This means that if God says something will happen. He has the power to make sure that it will happen. Therefore, when He promises eternal life to those who believe in Christ, He has the power to grant it. Just as He cannont sin, He has the power to forgive those who do.

Scripture Support:

Matthew 19:26
But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Genesis 17:1
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Job 42:2
I know that thou canst do everything, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.

Jeremiah 32:17,27
Ah Lord God! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee:
Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?

Luke 1:37
For with God nothing shall be impossible.

Revelation 19:6
And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

Conclusion:

There is nothing that God cannot do except that which goes against His nature. God alone has the power to conquer sin and death. He even created Satan who disobeyed and fell, therefore, He has power over him. He promised to give us the power to overcome he that is in the world.

Re: Omnipotence Doesn\'t Imply Seeing The Future.
 

Yah, but it does mean you don't have to care. Anything happens you don't like, you can just change it.

Re: Omnipotence Doesn\'t Imply Seeing The Future.
 

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Yah, but it does mean you don't have to care. Anything happens you don't like, you can just change it.

[/ QUOTE ]

If your wife/husband/child gets killed in a car crash you can change it?

Re: Omnipotence Doesn\'t Imply Seeing The Future.
 

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Yah, but it does mean you don't have to care. Anything happens you don't like, you can just change it.

[/ QUOTE ]

If your wife/husband/child gets killed in a car crash you can change it?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would think 'omnipotent' would include that ability.

Re: Omnipotence Doesn\'t Imply Seeing The Future.
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Yah, but it does mean you don't have to care. Anything happens you don't like, you can just change it.

[/ QUOTE ]

If your wife/husband/child gets killed in a car crash you can change it?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would think 'omnipotent' would include that ability.

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I'm sorry I must of misunderstood who you were refering to in your question/statement. When you wrote "Anything happens you don't like, you can just change it." I missunderstood who the "you" was.


An intersting article "What’s Wrong with Omnipotence?"

Re: Omnipotence Doesn\'t Imply Seeing The Future.
 

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Not if you(the omnipotent one) are included in that future.

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http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06612a.htm

(The section you want is the one headlined "Distinctions in the Divine Knowledge." It's about the apparent incompatibility of God's omniscience and man's free will, but it's the same issue you're talking about.)


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Its similar to building a rock you can't lift.

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Nah, that one they've got an easier answer for:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11251c.htm

Note that the above is merely the Catholic take on the subject. Other schools of theology may have other approaches.

Re: Omnipotence Doesn\'t Imply Seeing The Future.
 

Omnipotence doesn't imply seeing the future, but it does mean you have the POWER to do so.

Re: Omnipotence Doesn\'t Imply Seeing The Future.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Omnipotence doesn't imply seeing the future, but it does mean you have the POWER to do so.

[/ QUOTE ]
but it also implies the power to change the future and also the power to create a situation in which the future cannot be seen.

chez

Re: Omnipotence Doesn\'t Imply Seeing The Future.
 

chezlaw: If you're omnipotent, the only way to make something you cannot unmake is to devoid yourself of that power. Once you do that, you'll no longer be omnipotent

Re: Omnipotence Doesn\'t Imply Seeing The Future.
 

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chezlaw: If you're omnipotent, the only way to make something you cannot unmake is to devoid yourself of that power. Once you do that, you'll no longer be omnipotent

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure what you mean by unmake but if you deny god the ability to do things that reduce his omnipotence then you are denying god's omnipotence.

A coherent meaning of omnipotence such as an omnopiotent being can do anything they want but in making p the case they make ~p impossible, avoids the problem I think.

So god can make the world in 7 days but that entails not making it in 8 days. god can flip a random coin but then cant predict the outcome.

and if god really wants to he can commit deicide.

chez

Re: Omnipotence Doesn\'t Imply Seeing The Future.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
chezlaw: If you're omnipotent, the only way to make something you cannot unmake is to devoid yourself of that power. Once you do that, you'll no longer be omnipotent

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure what you mean by unmake but if you deny god the ability to do things that reduce his omnipotence then you are denying god's omnipotence.

A coherent meaning of omnipotence such as an omnopiotent being can do anything they want but in making p the case they make ~p impossible, avoids the problem I think.

So god can make the world in 7 days but that entails not making it in 8 days. god can flip a random coin but then cant predict the outcome.

and if god really wants to he can commit deicide.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

om·nip·o·tent ( P ) Pronunciation Key (m-np-tnt)
adj.
Having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful. See Usage Note at infinite.

n.
One having unlimited power or authority: the bureaucratic omnipotents.
Omnipotent God. Used with the.

God is supposed to be able to do anything if he is omnipotent.

Re: Omnipotence Doesn\'t Imply Seeing The Future.
 

My dictionary gives omniportent as

having virtually unlimited authority or influence

or

1 often capitalized : having absolute power over all <Almighty God>
2 : relatively unlimited in power
3 : great in magnitude or seriousness

These definitions of omniportent do not appear to be the logically inconstant defintion that most people here seem to be using [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

You could say that “power over all” includes power over time, but not necessarily.

Re: Omnipotence Doesn\'t Imply Seeing The Future.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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chezlaw: If you're omnipotent, the only way to make something you cannot unmake is to devoid yourself of that power. Once you do that, you'll no longer be omnipotent

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure what you mean by unmake but if you deny god the ability to do things that reduce his omnipotence then you are denying god's omnipotence.

A coherent meaning of omnipotence such as an omnopiotent being can do anything they want but in making p the case they make ~p impossible, avoids the problem I think.

So god can make the world in 7 days but that entails not making it in 8 days. god can flip a random coin but then cant predict the outcome.

and if god really wants to he can commit deicide.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

om·nip·o·tent ( P ) Pronunciation Key (m-np-tnt)
adj.
Having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful. See Usage Note at infinite.

n.
One having unlimited power or authority: the bureaucratic omnipotents.
Omnipotent God. Used with the.

God is supposed to be able to do anything if he is omnipotent.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes thats what I'm saying to. So anyone who says he cant do something (like make a coin flip random)has a problem as well.

The resolution is to make omnipotent coherent or just give up on reason because of a silly mis-interpretaion of the word unlimited.

Re: Omnipotence Doesn\'t Imply Seeing The Future.
 

I feel sorry for a being that is omnipotent in the sense that he can see his own future. It must be awful to be helpless and shackled to your own immenint destiny.

Re: Omnipotence Doesn\'t Imply Seeing The Future.
 

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I feel sorry for a being that is omnipotent in the sense that he can see his own future. It must be awful to be helpless and shackled to your own immenint destiny.

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yeah he would probally be real bored

Re: Omnipotence Doesn\'t Imply Seeing The Future.
 

chezlaw: Let me clear it up to you with a common example:

"If God can do anything (is omnipotent), can He create a rock so heavy that He wouldn't be able to lift?"

There are 2 ways He could do this:

1) By creating a heavy rock, then altering his powers so that He would no longer be able to lift that rock.

2) By creating a rock with a weight that is outside of his omnipotence radious.

Number 2) needs an explanation: His omnipotence is only so for everything that already exists, but He can create something else, where His own powers are not enough.

In both examples, he would cease to be omnipotent once He did that. But that doesn't mean that He's not omnipotent now; only if He were to do that.

Re: Omnipotence Doesn\'t Imply Seeing The Future.
 

[ QUOTE ]
chezlaw: Let me clear it up to you with a common example:

"If God can do anything (is omnipotent), can He create a rock so heavy that He wouldn't be able to lift?"

There are 2 ways He could do this:

1) By creating a heavy rock, then altering his powers so that He would no longer be able to lift that rock.

2) By creating a rock with a weight that is outside of his omnipotence radious.

Number 2) needs an explanation: His omnipotence is only so for everything that already exists, but He can create something else, where His own powers are not enough.

In both examples, he would cease to be omnipotent once He did that. But that doesn't mean that He's not omnipotent now; only if He were to do that.

[/ QUOTE ]
Are you saying god is omnipotent until he does something that ends it. If so then it follows that he might have already done it.

Its a strange view of omnipotence.

chez

Re: Omnipotence Doesn\'t Imply Seeing The Future.
 

Well, yes, He might have already done it. But you believe He hasn't. What's the point? If you go that way, "He" might not even exist.

It's the correct view [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Omnipotence Doesn\'t Imply Seeing The Future.
 

[ QUOTE ]
1) By creating a heavy rock, then altering his powers so that He would no longer be able to lift that rock.


[/ QUOTE ]
No, creating a rock then altering your powers is not creating something that you cannot lift. It is creating a rock that you could not lift if you were weaker.

[ QUOTE ]

2) By creating a rock with a weight that is outside of his omnipotence radious.


[/ QUOTE ]

No he cannot there is nothing outside an omnipotence radius, it would be infinite.

Re: Omnipotence Doesn\'t Imply Seeing The Future.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well, yes, He might have already done it. But you believe He hasn't. What's the point? If you go that way, "He" might not even exist.

It's the correct view [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm trying to understand what a coherent meaning of omnipotant could be. I'm not sure about you [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

chez

Re: Omnipotence Doesn\'t Imply Seeing The Future.
 

omnipotence = power over all

that's a good definition

Re: Omnipotence Doesn\'t Imply Seeing The Future.
 

[ QUOTE ]

No, creating a rock then altering your powers is not creating something that you cannot lift. It is creating a rock that you could not lift if you were weaker.


[/ QUOTE ]

We are assuming that minor changes like that don't make an entitiy a different "someone". Technically, every minute that passes, you're a different person, yet you still consider yourself. You wrote that post a while ago, that was YOU. Of course you're different now; just in the same way God could be different after altering his power.

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No he cannot there is nothing outside an omnipotence radius, it would be infinite.

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There is nothing YET (hence the omnipotence). But since He can do anything, He can create something new that IS outside His radious.


Another point: If you also add the belief that God is everything, changing Himself (His powers) and changing reality (creating a rock or whatever) isn't all that different after all [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]... But anyway, the point is that these 2 are the ways in which He could accomplish the task.