Playing Trips Passively
 

A hand from the Stars 35K... ~159 left, pays 81, I'm in the top 25 when this hand comes up. I had a reason for each action but I don't think I like the line. I think I am overdoing the WA/WB mentality. In this hand, more from a probably WA and trying to induce bluffs/value perspective. I wasn't abnormally scared of AK/KK.

Bet flop? Raise turn? Am I the only one who checks flop somewhat frequently?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t1600 (9 handed) internettexasholdem.com

SB (t62992)
BB (t27783)
UTG (t40880)
UTG+1 (t37515)
MP1 (t12850)
MP2 (t38642)
MP3 (t49310)
CO (t22212)
Hero (t64147)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t3200</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls t3200, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls t3200, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>.

(Note the minraise)

Flop: (t10200) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (t10200) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets t4800</font>, MP2 calls t4800, Hero calls t4800.

Re: Playing Trips Passively
 

I don't mind the check on the flop. Chances are you are way ahead. I don't know if I would just call the turn though. I would put in a good raise and go from there. At that point, there's about 20,000 in the pot.

Re: Playing Trips Passively
 

Bet the flop.. 7K.. you're not going to get any action unless someone is going after a 2 outer or already has you beat...

Basically I'm not letting this one go unless someone really plays back at me...

Re: Playing Trips Passively
 

Tough spot on turn, but I think calling is the correct play. I don't really like raising because he's not going to call you without KK or AK. He probably doesnt have AJ or worse because of the UTG raise, and he probably folds a hand like QQ/JJ/QK if you raise.

MP2 is a toughy. He very well could have a hand like AJ or A10, although its unlikely. I'd probably put him most likely on a K, and maybe a flush draw.

All in all, I like your call here. The only point to raising, in my opinion, is to price out the flush draws, which isn't as big as a concern as avoiding going broke to KK/AK.

Re: Playing Trips Passively
 

BUMP

Generally, my thoughts on the turn: The two big hearts are out, making a flush draw very unlikely for the raiser and pretty unlikely for the caller. If caller has a gutshot (again unlikely) , there's an outside chance he's drawing dead to me filling up, and he has some pair non-outs that may pay me off on the river. In other words, I'm not worried about draws. So, how do I get the most from pocket pairs and weaker aces or a king, assuming I go broke to AK/KK? After playing passively so far, I think I have jam the river if given the chance.

Re: Playing Trips Passively
 

Weaker aces will often go broke anyways. PPs will not put any more money in unless they fill up. Raise the turn. Flop check is reasonable with the pot so big already.

Re: Playing Trips Passively
 

I might raise the turn only because anyone with a halfway decent ace is probably calling almost any turn bet, and anyone without an ace (who doesn't have something better than trip aces) probably won't be putting any more chips in on the river. The K on the board even gives a lot of weaker aces the idea that they've got a good shot at a chop if they call and a fairly high card hits the river.

Basically, if the other 2 guys have just pocket pairs lower than a king, I don't think they bluff the river because they just saw the other 2 players call the turn bet. If they have a worse ace, they'll probably call your turn raise. And as long as you're OK with losing to AK/KK/77/A7, I think raising the turn is good.

So yeah, I'm gonna raise the turn. I think I've gotten as much as I can get out of 22-66, 88-QQ, and now want to isolate against any Ax/Kx hand that wants to keep going.

Re: Playing Trips Passively
 

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So yeah, I'm gonna raise the turn. I think I've gotten as much as I can get out of 22-66, 88-QQ, and now want to isolate against any Ax/Kx hand that wants to keep going.

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Does QQ call a river bet? It definitely folds to a turn raise.

In retrospect, my problem with the flop check is that a turn raise is transparent.

Re: Playing Trips Passively
 

The thing about the flop check is that it looks like a really obvious position bet, so you get action from tons of PPs. Your check also makes it slightly harder to stack AJ, AT and the occasional Ax, although you probably still stack them.

IMHO, the big problem with checking that flop is that it makes your life difficult on the turn if somebody bets (which happens like 2/3 of the time). If you raise, you've played your hand the way people expect you to play trips, so you lose a lot of action. If you call (as you did), you forgot to put lots of chips in the pot. Obviously, you're going to be betting or raising this river, but again, raising looks a lot like trips.

This line would make more sense with AT, because then you're probably behind the majority of Ax holdings UTG could have. Since almost all UTG raisers are opening AJ, and tons of them open AT, and some open A2... you're looking to get your money, as there's no way any of these hands are folding if you bet/raise at every opportunity. By checking, you let A2-AT slow down and a whole range of PPs fold.

Re: Playing Trips Passively
 

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This line would make more sense with AT, because then you're probably behind the majority of Ax holdings UTG could have.

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Good point.

Re: Playing Trips Passively
 

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This line would make more sense with AT, because then you're probably behind the majority of Ax holdings UTG could have.

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Good point.

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Not really, you're going broke here anyways with AT.

Re: Playing Trips Passively
 

I wish UTG hadn't been so much of a pussy. If he raises 3x preflop and bets 2/3rds pot on turn, my line looks a little better.

Re: Playing Trips Passively
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So yeah, I'm gonna raise the turn. I think I've gotten as much as I can get out of 22-66, 88-QQ, and now want to isolate against any Ax/Kx hand that wants to keep going.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does QQ call a river bet? It definitely folds to a turn raise.

In retrospect, my problem with the flop check is that a turn raise is transparent.

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It's definitely transparent, but I think you have to define your hand here. You aren't folding at any point on this hand, so you define your hand. If people are ahead of you, you're going to stack them unless you fill up on the river. If they're behind you, they probably aren't betting again and probably wouldn't even call a river bet unless they have a worse ace or possibly a king.

I don't think QQ calls a river bet unless the player totally sucks.

Re: Playing Trips Passively
 

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This line would make more sense with AT, because then you're probably behind the majority of Ax holdings UTG could have.

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Good point.

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Not really, you're going broke here anyways with AT.

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If I have AT, underrepresenting my hand is good, b/c if I rep an A strongly I'm repping a range where my hand is at the weak end. I have to worry even more about getting the max from non-A hands. With AQ that's not quite the case. That's his point.

Re: Playing Trips Passively
 

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It's definitely transparent, but I think you have to define your hand here. You aren't folding at any point on this hand, so you define your hand.

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I don't understand this. If I'm not folding, why do I want them to know I have an A? Ideally I would get a lot of money in a way that makes a bunch of weaker hands think they're good, no?

Re: Playing Trips Passively
 

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If I have AT, underrepresenting my hand is good, b/c if I rep an A strongly I'm repping a range where my hand is at the weak end. I have to worry even more about getting the max from non-A hands. With AQ that's not quite the case.

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This makes no sense to me. Why would we have to worry 'even more' about maxing versus weaker aces? If he has AJ/AT the money goes in, so that shouldn't really factor into our decision on whether or not to bet the flop. Maximize versus the hands we beat is what we need to do.

Re: Playing Trips Passively
 

Because I'm pretty sure any ace (and many kings) will come along when you raise anyway. They're going to pay you off regardless, so build the pot on the turn so you can get paid off better on the river. Weaker hands that would actually call a river bet unimproved will call a turn raise too.

I just think that if you're going to win this hand, you want to build the pot now, let weaker aces pay you off, and resign yourself to the fact that the guy with QQ is done putting money in the pot when he sees 2 people calling a turn bet on a board with AAK.

Re: Playing Trips Passively
 

I agree that betting the flop is really important, mostly for the reasons you've cited. If you wait until later in the hand to start betting and raising, you might as well play your cards face-up. No hand raises the turn or river that isn't trip aces or better.

If you bet the flop it gets more money into the pot, and makes your hand at least a little less transparent. Is he betting an ace? Or stealing the pot from in position with 99?

If you're going to check a street, I'd rather bet the flop, and then check behind the turn if it's checked to you. You took your shot, and now you're shutting it down. Depending on the villains, it may induce a bluff on the river.

Re: Playing Trips Passively
 

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If I have AT, underrepresenting my hand is good, b/c if I rep an A strongly I'm repping a range where my hand is at the weak end. I have to worry even more about getting the max from non-A hands. With AQ that's not quite the case.

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This makes no sense to me. Why would we have to worry 'even more' about maxing versus weaker aces? If he has AJ/AT the money goes in, so that shouldn't really factor into our decision on whether or not to bet the flop. Maximize versus the hands we beat is what we need to do.

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Do you seriously not see the difference between having AQ and AT?

If you take a line that says "OMG I have an ACE!" with AT you're in bad shape most of the time when money goes in. If you take a line leaves room for doubt you have a better chance of getting more from lower pairs and lower aces.

Re: Playing Trips Passively
 

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If I have AT, underrepresenting my hand is good, b/c if I rep an A strongly I'm repping a range where my hand is at the weak end. I have to worry even more about getting the max from non-A hands. With AQ that's not quite the case.

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This makes no sense to me. Why would we have to worry 'even more' about maxing versus weaker aces? If he has AJ/AT the money goes in, so that shouldn't really factor into our decision on whether or not to bet the flop. Maximize versus the hands we beat is what we need to do.

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Do you seriously not see the difference between having AQ and AT?

If you take a line that says "OMG I have an ACE!" with AT you're in bad shape most of the time when money goes in. If you take a line leaves room for doubt you have a better chance of getting more from lower pairs and lower aces.

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Stacks are shallow enough that this argument about being less transparent to make money off smaller aces and PPs should apply to BOTH AT and AQ. There is not much difference between the two in this hand, nor should there be a strategic difference in how you play them.

Re: Playing Trips Passively
 

Ok, that's reasonable. I just think there's a non-trivial possibility of being against AJ/AT when we have AQ, and conversely, being against AQ/AJ when we have AT.

This is getting off track, but if I took this exact line with AT and UTG bet 15K on the river, I would call. With AQ I would push.