TPTK on multi-draw board
 

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (9.40 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>

This raise is of course to protect my hand from overs and gutshots and I still think it is correct.

However, I wonder if there is someone advocating to wait until the turn to raise. If the turn card completes a draw I can easily fold if there is action but if it is a blank, 2 cold will maybe force some more people out (given the aggressor continues betting, of course).

Then again, even 2 cold on the turn will not drive a flush draw or an OESD out.

Re: TPTK on multi-draw board
 

Raise pf the first time.

Other than that, this is standard. The raise protects your hand versus a lot of hands. I wouldn't wait till the turn to raise anyway, but I don't see how this can be done without position.

Re: TPTK on multi-draw board
 

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Raise pf the first time.

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Hm, I'm not so sure about raising AJo in EP. SSHE says not to.

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Other than that, this is standard. The raise protects your hand versus a lot of hands. I wouldn't wait till the turn to raise anyway, but I don't see how this can be done without position.

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Good to see someone with more experience agree [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] .

Thanks.

Re: TPTK on multi-draw board
 

i have problems with hands like this, too. i would normally raise here. after rereading SSH, i found a similar hand in it: page 118. its categorised as a marginal hand. if you have a small edge on the flop, half of the deck is scary for you. call and push your edge on the turn if a blank falls.

belonging to the action preflop, im really helpless without any reads. thats why i like to open-raise AJ. i know, im behind if i get reraised and can play my toppair more comfortable when i was the preflop aggressor.

Re: TPTK on multi-draw board
 

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i have problems with hands like this, too. i would normally raise here. after rereading SSH, i found a similar hand in it: page 118. its categorised as a marginal hand. if you have a small edge on the flop, half of the deck is scary for you. call and push your edge on the turn if a blank falls.

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It's just too risky. It's nice pushing our edge on the turn, but we drain a ton of equity when that turn gets checked through, and a lot of hands will do that.

we need position for this play, and a bunch of callers between us. We have a chance to make the field call two cold so let's do it. Giving the field 5:1, we fold a lot of stuff.

Re: TPTK on multi-draw board
 

If you check/call this flop evryone else is calling. If you are ahead of the CO and the turn doesn't improve him he is most likely checking. Someone else may decide to bet the turn also. Your given a chance on the flop to face everyone with two bets so do it. There is a strong possibility you will not get that chance on the turn if your hand is currently best. Raise pre flop.

Re: TPTK on multi-draw board
 

I's funny everyone tells me to raise pf. SSHE states to only limp with AJo in EP no matter how loose the game is and that table was somehow on the upper end of the "tight" section (though definitely not "loose").

I see that TP plays easier if I was the aggressor but in this spot having the pf aggressor to my right actually was a good thing -- I could go for a c/r on the flop.

An argument for raising probabely is that AJ is mainly dominated by hands that would likely 3-bet (AQ, AK). So if someone 3-bets I know I'm likely behind.

Also raising pf would probably have shut out the people that hit their gutshot on the river [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] . But this I could not know of course.

Re: TPTK on multi-draw board
 

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SSH page 118.
Ac Jd on a board Jc Ts 8s
This is a marginal hand. You have top pair with the best kicker, but you are very vulnerable. A third spade could give someone a flush. Running spade will almost always sink you. A queen, nine or seven puts four to a straight on the board. Also, it is likely that someone flopped two pair; people often play hands like JT or T8. If you have the best hand, someone is likely to draw out. If you are behind you are drawing slim. If someone flopped a straight, you are drawin nearly dead.
Also, anyone who holds a nine and has made a pair with his other card has many outs to beat you and will frequently play his hand strongly on the flop. This will make it difficult to read your opponent's hand, increasing the chance that you will make a playing error on 4th or 5th street. this further dimishes the value of your hand.

page 130
...learn to evaluate the strength of your pair hands accurately. Many loose and overaggressive players make critical errorshere. They jam top pair against 3 or 4 opponents when the coordinated board strongly devalues their hand.

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i have no clue how to handle this specific situation (im just a beginner) and wanted to throw in what i might have "learnd".

Re: TPTK on multi-draw board
 

This seems to advocate only calling the flop and then betting or c/r the turn if a blank comes. I'm not convinced yet, Buckmulligan's argument about the turn getting checked through is strong. Our position is terrible.

Re: TPTK on multi-draw board
 

Though probabely not too important the following is interesting to note: Although I (most likely) had the best hand on the flop I was not the favourite for the hand. I didn't even have equity! MP1 had Q7d, MP3 97, giving the following equities:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 24.7561 % 23.32% 01.44% { AsJh }
Hand 2: 45.5663 % 43.66% 01.90% { Qd7d }
Hand 3: 10.7609 % 10.12% 00.64% { 9h7c }
Hand 4: 18.9166 % 16.22% 02.70% { 99+, AJs+, KJs+, QJs, AJo+, KJo+, QJo }

I don't have good reads on CO, he seemed somewhat sensible though.

Re: TPTK on multi-draw board
 

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Though probabely not too important the following is interesting to note: Although I (most likely) had the best hand on the flop I was not the favourite for the hand. I didn't even have equity! MP1 had Q7d, MP3 97, giving the following equities:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 24.7561 % 23.32% 01.44% { AsJh }
Hand 2: 45.5663 % 43.66% 01.90% { Qd7d }
Hand 3: 10.7609 % 10.12% 00.64% { 9h7c }
Hand 4: 18.9166 % 16.22% 02.70% { 99+, AJs+, KJs+, QJs, AJo+, KJo+, QJo }

I don't have good reads on CO, he seemed somewhat sensible though.

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I would run it again giving hand #2 and #3 random hands and see what your equity is then. I also think this is a shining example of why you should have raised pre flop.

Re: TPTK on multi-draw board
 

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Though probabely not too important the following is interesting to note: Although I (most likely) had the best hand on the flop I was not the favourite for the hand. I didn't even have equity! MP1 had Q7d, MP3 97, giving the following equities:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 24.7561 % 23.32% 01.44% { AsJh }
Hand 2: 45.5663 % 43.66% 01.90% { Qd7d }
Hand 3: 10.7609 % 10.12% 00.64% { 9h7c }
Hand 4: 18.9166 % 16.22% 02.70% { 99+, AJs+, KJs+, QJs, AJo+, KJo+, QJo }

I don't have good reads on CO, he seemed somewhat sensible though.

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im not good with pokerstove. but i miss hands thats c-bet like AK, KQ for the CO. but even the range youre given the 3 others, you dont have an edge.

Re: TPTK on multi-draw board
 

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im not good with pokerstove. but i miss hands thats c-bet like AK, KQ for the CO.

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These are included in the AJs+, AJo+, KJs+, KJo+.

Re: TPTK on multi-draw board
 

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I would run it again giving hand #2 and #3 random hands and see what your equity is then.

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Then I have a very nice edge of course.

Re: TPTK on multi-draw board
 

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I would run it again giving hand #2 and #3 random hands and see what your equity is then.

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Then I have a very nice edge of course.

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Then you should check/raise the flop and not be results oriented. You have no way of putting these two on any sort of a range given the action to you after CO bets the flop.

Re: TPTK on multi-draw board
 

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i have problems with hands like this, too. i would normally raise here. after rereading SSH, i found a similar hand in it: page 118. its categorised as a marginal hand. if you have a small edge on the flop, half of the deck is scary for you. call and push your edge on the turn if a blank falls.

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It's just too risky. It's nice pushing our edge on the turn, but we drain a ton of equity when that turn gets checked through, and a lot of hands will do that.

we need position for this play, and a bunch of callers between us. We have a chance to make the field call two cold so let's do it. Giving the field 5:1, we fold a lot of stuff.

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Are we expecting to eliminate an ace rag here for a cold call? if so, that will open up a few more outs. I personally would re raise to get the two ckeckers having to call 2 bets to 11 for an inside straight draw.

Re: TPTK on multi-draw board
 

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Are we expecting to eliminate an ace rag here for a cold call? if so, that will open up a few more outs.

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I'm not sure what you mean. Ace rag is not really a concern here. In fact anyone with ace rag might pay us nicely when an A hits the board.

Re: TPTK on multi-draw board
 

Like others, this is a hand that I question often. As played by me, I usually limp as the OP did in EP with AJo. On the flop I would lead with a bet. I don't see how going for the C/R really protects your hand, except against someone with a weaker Jack. Anyone with a 10 or a 4-flush will have the odds to call 2 cold, and other random hands are way behind making any bets they call better for you in the long run. So C/R seems to blow those that are way behind out of the pot and gives those with drawing hands more reason to call if a blank does come on the turn and they face only 1 bet from you or get a free card from a blown second c/r attempt on the turn.

Anyhow, those are my thoughts and I'm also interested in the flaws with my thinking.

Re: TPTK on multi-draw board
 

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Raise pf the first time.


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Are you folding to a reraise? Say you call it, what flop makes you happy?

Re: TPTK on multi-draw board
 

grunch

I think this is one of those cases where we wait for a safe turn card then c/r

Re: TPTK on multi-draw board
 

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Raise pf the first time.

Other than that, this is standard. The raise protects your hand versus a lot of hands. I wouldn't wait till the turn to raise anyway, but I don't see how this can be done without position.

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2nd edit: He has relative position needed. I'm pretty conflicted here, I want to raise out any K, Q or gutshot, but our reverse implied odds suck. I think I bite my lip really hard and call hoping to c/r the turn on a safe card.

Re: TPTK on multi-draw board
 

This almost always a wait for a safe turn. A bet will set it 2:11 odds, almost enough for an inside straight, but iwth implied odds, is acually about even money, so I wait for a safe turn and bet out.

Re: TPTK on multi-draw board
 

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I's funny everyone tells me to raise pf. SSHE states to only limp with AJo in EP no matter how loose the game is and that table was somehow on the upper end of the "tight" section (though definitely not "loose").

I see that TP plays easier if I was the aggressor but in this spot having the pf aggressor to my right actually was a good thing -- I could go for a c/r on the flop.

An argument for raising probabely is that AJ is mainly dominated by hands that would likely 3-bet (AQ, AK). So if someone 3-bets I know I'm likely behind.

Also raising pf would probably have shut out the people that hit their gutshot on the river [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] . But this I could not know of course.

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Maybe some one has said this already but pg. 73 in SSHE says raise AJ if pot has not already been raised . . . the exception is if your in late position and alot of people have limped then it says just call.

Re: TPTK on multi-draw board
 

I would much rather raise this in EP on a tight table then I would on a loose table. The tables in SSHE are a guide. Yes AJ is a marginal hand but you are raising first in to run of some of those really marginal hands in later position that would like to see a flop for cheap. There is something to be said for facing the field with 2 bets. It makes your post flop decisions a little easier.

Re: TPTK on multi-draw board
 

No you call and re evaluate on the flop. You can significantly reduce the hands you are going to get 3 bet with. Where as if you limp in then are raised it puts you in a fairly difficult position due to the fact hand value to raise with are far wider then to 3 bet pre flop.

Re: TPTK on multi-draw board
 

There are two overcards (K and Q) that could hurt our pair. The c/r was to fold K's and Q's that didn't hit anything else on the flop. Then again, a Q will likely stay even for 2 cold because of the gutshot. But someone with only a gutshot can not call profitably.

It was bad luck that both checkers (being on gutshots) also hit something else: one had middle pair and the other one had a flush draw (apart from his Q over). But that we cannot know.

I still think that the c/r was the correct play.

Re: TPTK on multi-draw board
 

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This almost always a wait for a safe turn. A bet will set it 2:11 odds, almost enough for an inside straight, but iwth implied odds, is acually about even money, so I wait for a safe turn and bet out.

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agree.

Re: TPTK on multi-draw board
 

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This almost always a wait for a safe turn. A bet will set it 2:11 odds, almost enough for an inside straight, but iwth implied odds, is acually about even money, so I wait for a safe turn and bet out.

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agree.

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You do not have position to wait for a safe turn here. Implied odds are not good for gut shots. If CO has half a brain here he is only betting the turn if we are behind. The flop is your only possible chance to protect your hand against weak draws and a turn brick checking through would be terrible.

Re: TPTK on multi-draw board
 

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Raise pf the first time.

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Hm, I'm not so sure about raising AJo in EP. SSHE says not to.

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I limp AJo when I expect to be coldcalled in 2 or more spots. Otherwise I'll raise. Folding is not an option.