hero vomits and...? ($150 Stars)
 

UTG+1 is a fairly tight player...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

UTG+1 (t7483)
MP1 (t4775)
MP2 (t4453)
MP3 (t5802)
CO (t1745)
Button (t5020)
Hero (t2145)
BB (t7520)
UTG (t4579)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls t200, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises to t775</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>,

Hero?

Re: hero vomits and...? ($150 Stars)
 

Pushes. It's a tough spot but you are getting pretty shortstacked and this could be your best spot. His range could definitely be AQ, AK, or 99,tens. I can't see passing up this spot.

Re: hero vomits and...? ($150 Stars)
 

am I allowed to push and NOT vomit? meh, depends what you mean by fairly tight, but I can't imagine folding JJ with this stack to a single raise.

Re: hero vomits and...? ($150 Stars)
 

[ QUOTE ]
am I allowed to push and NOT vomit? meh, depends what you mean by fairly tight, but I can't imagine folding JJ with this stack to a single raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

The range I put him on when I vomited was TT+, AQ+. He had not raised early once from what I had seen.

Re: hero vomits and...? ($150 Stars)
 

wonders why he is vomiting and then notices the easy decision he is faced with.
Edit: How many orbits have you played with him?

Re: hero vomits and...? ($150 Stars)
 

[ QUOTE ]
wonders why he is vomiting and then notices the easy decision he is faced with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: hero vomits and...? ($150 Stars)
 

You're hurting for chips. Definitely push here.

Re: hero vomits and...? ($150 Stars)
 

maybe I'm high, but please describe your ranges for a fairly tight player to be raising 4xbb UTG+1 after a limp.

Re: hero vomits and...? ($150 Stars)
 

[ QUOTE ]

Edit: How many orbits have you played with him?

[/ QUOTE ]

7 or 8.

Re: hero vomits and...? ($150 Stars)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
wonders why he is vomiting and then notices the easy decision he is faced with.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: hero vomits and...? ($150 Stars)
 

He's deep stacked. He is most likely raising anything reasonable, i.e. AA-77, AK-AJ, KQ, maybe more. You don't have that great of a read. If you say he is a huge nit (like 12/7) then maybe it's close but "fairly tight" isn't enough.

Re: hero vomits and...? ($150 Stars)
 

I can tell you for sure this guy is not raising 88 or 77 UTG+1. 99 is possible.

Whatever your definition for 99-AA, AQ+ as raising requirements for UTG+1, that's what I mean by "fairly tight".

Re: hero vomits and...? ($150 Stars)
 

I am a fairly tight player and my raising range with villian's stack from EP after a UTG limp is AQs,AK, AA-TT only. JJ is 44.19% against that range. Does it have to be push or fold? Can he just call and check/raise any non A/K flop?

Re: hero vomits and...? ($150 Stars)
 

Well you are 47% against AA-TT, AQ+ so given the limper and blinds dead money I don't think you have a choice given you likely will not get many more opportunities. Not to mention the fact that no read is that solid after 70 or so hands.

Re: hero vomits and...? ($150 Stars)
 

Alright, I'm playing devil's advocate here, because I did push after vomiting....

I'm not going to find a better situation than 47% getting the button, first-in-vigorish with late position coming up, and still with 10x the big blind and no antes? I understand what you mean equity-wise, but if we all agree his range IS AA-TT and AQ+, I think part of me would rather push K2o from the CO after it's folded to me than push here.

Re: hero vomits and...? ($150 Stars)
 

would a stop and go be a reasonable option as well?

Re: hero vomits and...? ($150 Stars)
 

[ QUOTE ]
would a stop and go be a reasonable option as well?

[/ QUOTE ]

He's raising 35% of my stack, he's probably going to call my flop push with any board.

Re: hero vomits and...? ($150 Stars)
 

so if he's got AK and the flop is 742 he'll call? if he's got QQ and the flop is AK3 he'll call?

It gives you another chance to win the hand, that's all. If he folds for any reason, I think it's a reasonable option to consider, don't you?

Re: hero vomits and...? ($150 Stars)
 

[ QUOTE ]
so if he's got AK and the flop is 742 he'll call? if he's got QQ and the flop is AK3 he'll call?

It gives you another chance to win the hand, that's all. If he folds for any reason, I think it's a reasonable option to consider, don't you?

[/ QUOTE ]

I call 775, and the pot is suddenly 2050, and I have 1300 left to push. I know I wouldn't lay down with almost any board given that situation...

to play along,

AK, flop three rags, I push, he instacalls.

AQ, flop three undercards, I push, he instacalls.

any pair, flop one overcard, I push, he instacalls.

QQ-TT, flop AKx, he MIGHT very well fold there, but does it happen enough times to justify a stop n go over a push or a fold? That's a very specific circumstance there.

I don't think running a stop and go here is a better play than a straight push necessarily, but it's not a bad suggestion in theory.

Re: hero vomits and...? ($150 Stars)
 

This isn't close and no vomitting is necessary.

A stop and go sucks because you really want to be all in against AK here preflop, and you will never fold out a better hand on the flop and you will occasionally fold a worse hand.

Re: hero vomits and...? ($150 Stars)
 

[ QUOTE ]
This isn't close and no vomitting is necessary.

A stop and go sucks because you really want to be all in against AK is good here preflop, and you will never fold out a better hand on the flop and you will occasionally fold a worse hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point, but I guess my thinking is that I'd rather have

a) first in vigorish/FE
b) know I'm not up against a monster one way or another (best case he flips TT, second best I'm shouting HOLD in a flip)

I go back to my point about gaining the button with 10xbb left and another ten hands or so to choose from. I realize, yes, I need chips, but if we accept the range I put villain on, isn't this a bad spot for jacks?

Re: hero vomits and...? ($150 Stars)
 

No its not... for all the afformentioned reasons. Passing up a clear edge this early is suicide.

Sure you'd rather be in a better spot, but that's irellevent because you aren't.

Re: hero vomits and...? ($150 Stars)
 

I don't think "we" accept your range.

Re: hero vomits and...? ($150 Stars)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Alright, I'm playing devil's advocate here, because I did push after vomiting....

I'm not going to find a better situation than 47% getting the button, first-in-vigorish with late position coming up, and still with 10x the big blind and no antes? I understand what you mean equity-wise, but if we all agree his range IS AA-TT and AQ+, I think part of me would rather push K2o from the CO after it's folded to me than push here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do we have to choose between +EV situations? Take all of them.

Re: hero vomits and...? ($150 Stars)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think "we" accept your range.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is it you're having a hard time accepting? If you think that 7-8 orbits is not enough time to get a read on a player, then no read is ever relevant to any MTT situation, period. Either that or you somehow think my read is just incorrect.

This guy was not involved in ANY pots whatsoever the entire time I was at the table, except two, and both he won on the flop without showdown.

TT-AA, AQ-AK is MY range for raising UTG+1 after a UTG limp, and this guy was playing tighter than I do. Yes, 70 hands blah blah blah, but at some point you have to trust that you have at least an adequate guess of a player's range.

Re: hero vomits and...? ($150 Stars)
 

There are times to pass up edges.

This is by no means one of those times.

Re: hero vomits and...? ($150 Stars)
 

[ QUOTE ]
No its not... for all the afformentioned reasons. Passing up a clear edge this early is suicide.

Sure you'd rather be in a better spot, but that's irellevent because you aren't.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm confused as to why this is a clear edge. Are you talking about JJ being 47% vs. the range I'm putting him on justifying my pot odds to push?

I'm not trying to be an idiot, I'm honestly confused. I had a really bad feeling about this hand pretty much from the moment he acted. I knew he had a premium hand, and I knew I didn't want to see him flip up most of the hands I knew he was going to probably flip up.

Re: hero vomits and...? ($150 Stars)
 

My point is that there is a margin of error, and it all lies on the side of him being looser than that. The other point of not passing up this however small edge is equally valid, though.

Re: hero vomits and...? ($150 Stars)
 

[ QUOTE ]


I'm confused as to why this is a clear edge. Are you talking about JJ being 47% vs. the range I'm putting him on justifying my pot odds to push?

I'm not trying to be an idiot, I'm honestly confused. I had a really bad feeling about this hand pretty much from the moment he acted. I knew he had a premium hand, and I knew I didn't want to see him flip up most of the hands I knew he was going to probably flip up.

[/ QUOTE ]

.47 *22.5 = 10.575 &gt; 10

Re: hero vomits and...? ($150 Stars)
 

Tough spot though, really.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

UTG+1 (t7483)
MP1 (t4775)
MP2 (t4453)
MP3 (t5802)
CO (t1745)
Button (t5020)
Hero (t2145)
BB (t7520)
UTG (t4579)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls t200, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises to t775</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t2145</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls t1370.

Flop: (t4690) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Turn: (t4690) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

River: (t4690) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: t4690

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has Js Jc (one pair, jacks).
UTG+1 has Ks Kc (three of a kind, kings).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins t4690. </font>

Re: hero vomits and...? ($150 Stars)
 

[ QUOTE ]
My point is that there is a margin of error, and it all lies on the side of him being looser than that. The other point of not passing up this however small edge is equally valid, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well said.

Re: hero vomits and...? ($150 Stars)
 

Bestcellar, the results are obvious so you didn't need to post them.

The reason you have a clear edge here, is that your range is on the tight side, and if it is wrong, it is looser not tighter, like Donny ^^^ said. Even if your range was spot on... then you still have an edge.

Re: hero vomits and...? ($150 Stars)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


I'm confused as to why this is a clear edge. Are you talking about JJ being 47% vs. the range I'm putting him on justifying my pot odds to push?

I'm not trying to be an idiot, I'm honestly confused. I had a really bad feeling about this hand pretty much from the moment he acted. I knew he had a premium hand, and I knew I didn't want to see him flip up most of the hands I knew he was going to probably flip up.

[/ QUOTE ]

.47 *22.5 = 10.575 &gt; 10

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm stupid, so you're going to have to break that down for me.

Re: hero vomits and...? ($150 Stars)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My point is that there is a margin of error, and it all lies on the side of him being looser than that. The other point of not passing up this however small edge is equally valid, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well said.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: hero vomits and...? ($150 Stars)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bestcellar, the results are obvious so you didn't need to post them.

The reason you have a clear edge here, is that your range is on the tight side, and if it is wrong, it is looser not tighter, like Donny ^^^ said. Even if your range was spot on... then you still have an edge.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was certain that my range was not incorrect. There are times when I'm certain my range for a player could be off, but this really was NOT one of them. Maybe 99, but I really really doubted that. Don't ask me why, I guess it was a gut feeling based on everything I had seen. I was certain that my range was not off in the slightest, and intuitively, when five of the six possible hands you're expecting to see you are either a huge dog or a very slight favorite to, it doesn't make you feel all that great about pushing with a stack you think can last a little longer.

If my stack was say 1500, this thread never would've been made. If this stack was 2700+, I would have just called and taken a flop, and gotten away. The stack size was awkward and the whole composition of the hand flat out sucked.

Not to turn this into a thread that will be moved to BBV because honestly it's not a bad beat and I didn't feel that bad about it at the time. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: hero vomits and...? ($150 Stars)
 

I trust Cellar's read. He was there, I wasn't, and I think it seems entirely plausible. If his read is right, I give up the 3% edge for first in vigorish in the next few hands.

Re: hero vomits and...? ($150 Stars)
 

wtf makes you think you can make up the 3% edge with your precious FIV.

Re: hero vomits and...? ($150 Stars)
 

Ansky, you keep saying that this is no time to pass up edges. The problem is, we do not have an edge. If the read and resulting range are correct, and I think they probably are, then we are actually a slight dog.

Pass this up and put your 10BBs to work with first-in vigorishness.

Re: hero vomits and...? ($150 Stars)
 

[ QUOTE ]
wtf makes you think you can make up the 3% edge with your precious FIV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Times we're not called PLUS times we're called and win MINUS times we're called and lose EQUALS greater than 3% edge.

Re: hero vomits and...? ($150 Stars)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


I'm confused as to why this is a clear edge. Are you talking about JJ being 47% vs. the range I'm putting him on justifying my pot odds to push?

I'm not trying to be an idiot, I'm honestly confused. I had a really bad feeling about this hand pretty much from the moment he acted. I knew he had a premium hand, and I knew I didn't want to see him flip up most of the hands I knew he was going to probably flip up.

[/ QUOTE ]

.47 *22.5 = 10.575 &gt; 10

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm stupid, so you're going to have to break that down for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

oh if you mean big blinds, it's actually .47*24 (with the dead money) = 11.28&gt;10, and yes, this is more than a slight edge.