Steroid issue from a \"personal\" viewpoint
 

Yes I understand that this has been done a million times, and no I don't care. If you're too tired of the issue, please skip reading this. I will tell you that what I am about to discuss is very rarely discussed, and it includes a personal experience.

First off let me preface this with my undying love for both Barry Bonds and the Giants, and the effect of those sentiments on my own take of this situation. But my input comes from personal experience. Not with steroids, but with growth in general.

Sometime during my Sophomore year at USNA, I completely ripped my right shoulder out of its socket. Being a midshipman, I was obviously in at least decent shape, but nothing spectacular. After my surgery, I spent a full 6 months completely physically inactive.

One morning I woke up, realized how weak I had become, and got very upset, very determined. I started working out for 3-4 hours a day, pretty insane intensity levels. After about 6 months, I had gone from 220 lbs and very weak (6'1") to 200 pounds with power #'s that I'm sure would rival Barry's.

Along the way, I hit some plateau's and used some supplements to help me. I took one full cycle of creatine, and one bottle of Ripped Fuel, but no others whatsoever.

Yes, I had to wake up at 5AM to sneak in cardio before military/academic obligations kicked in. Yes, I was borderline insane. Yes, I was going on 2-5 hours of sleep for a full 6 months. But guess what? I did it without steroids, and I was a totally different person. People would look at me exactly the way I assume they look at Barry, with a sort of reverant amazement and definetely disbelief. People would constantly ask me in the gym what I was supplementing with or what special secret I have, the answer was none. Just a ton of time, and a lot of hard work.

My point to all of this is not that Barry didn't supplement. I, just like every other clown in the world besides 1, don't really know the answer, but it looks like he may have. My point is that it can be done, and when people constantly use the argument of his "incredible gains" being impossible without steroids, I knowingly laugh my ass off.

Listen guys, for the his entire career, Barry's work ethic, motivation, and drive have absolutely never come into question. During the first half of his career all of that work was poured into speed and pure hitting. Then the game changed, and so did his body. Is there anybody who will really argue that it is impossible, or even really that difficult, to gain 10 or even 30 pounds of muscle in a year? What about with the help of a full time nutritionist and fitness/strength coach?

That's all I got.

Re: Steroid issue from a \"personal\" viewpoint
 

you lost weight, barry gained weight.
apples and oranges.
-noodles
p.s. how about your hat size?

Re: Steroid issue from a \"personal\" viewpoint
 

also, Sophmore year vs. 30+...

Re: Steroid issue from a \"personal\" viewpoint
 

do you now have a swollen head?

Re: Steroid issue from a \"personal\" viewpoint
 

wow--

this was totally enlightening. i no longer think barry bonds used steroids, even unintentionally!

Re: Steroid issue from a \"personal\" viewpoint
 

I gained 20 pounds my freshman year too, but that was mostly b/c of Golden Anniversary Light. Imagine how much I would have gained if I was drinking regular beer!! It boggles the mind.

Re: Steroid issue from a \"personal\" viewpoint
 

[ QUOTE ]

My point to all of this is not that Barry didn't supplement. I, just like every other clown in the world besides 1, don't really know the answer, but it looks like he may have. My point is that it can be done, and when people constantly use the argument of his "incredible gains" being impossible without steroids, I knowingly laugh my ass off.

[/ QUOTE ]

You went from a guy who was in "decent" shape, to a sloth for 6 months to a guy who worked out like a mad man for 6 months. Barry was already an elite athlete working out for years, his baseline was much higher, in fact it wasn't even really a baseline, he was in peak physical condition.
Barry also did this when he was in his Mid- thirties. A period in which most hitters are in serious decline. Everything about his story is freakish.

Re: Steroid issue from a \"personal\" viewpoint
 

Good point, Jihad. I feel the same way, but good luck trying to convince those who already made up their minds and just fill in the facts to suit their needs.

For what it's worth....the Giants equipment manager has stated that Bond's hat size hasn't changed since he was acquired in 1993.

Anybody have any definitive evidence on the head size issue?

Hater: "But I see with my bare eyes on TV that it is bigger."

Me: "Well, you must have some sort of amazing eyesight."

Hster: "No, not really, I just believe whatever people in the media tell me to believe, and parrot it back as fact."

Re: Steroid issue from a \"personal\" viewpoint
 

Are you serious? His head is clearly much bigger than it used to be.

Re: Steroid issue from a \"personal\" viewpoint
 

[ QUOTE ]
After about 6 months, I had gone from 220 lbs and very weak (6'1") to 200 pounds with power #'s that I'm sure would rival Barry's.


[/ QUOTE ]

Your argument is based on your personal experience, and your belief that you can achieve similar results as Barry without using supplements. But saying you're "sure" your numbers rival his is no different than others saying they're "sure" he used steroids. How can you be so sure that your numbers stack up to his? If you found out that his numbers blew yours out of the water, would your opinion change? And lastly, do you think you could sustain your strength over a 162-game season, like Barry does?

Re: Steroid issue from a \"personal\" viewpoint
 

If after 6 months of working out you had power number to rival Bonds, then after 2 years of working out you would be a world champion weightlifter or powerlifter.

And you got this strong while losing weight and going on 5 hours of sleep?

This is very odd for a few reasons:

1. Champion Olympic weightlifters don't even train 3-4 hours per day. It burns out the CNS.

2. Champion Olympic weightlifters sleep 9+ hours per day to recover from their workouts.

3. The HW olympic weightlifters eat 4500+ calories per day because gaining strength is hard to do while losing weight.

4. Champion Olympic weightlifters for the last 40 years have used steroids between meets and the Olympics.

So, you became insanely powerful while defying all convention, and all the while, you did not use steroids.

I don't mean to be slamming you, but what you have said does not mesh with anything I know.

I am curious, what were your power numbers BEFORE you blew out your shoulder? What were your power numbers after 6 months of working out?

Also, it is not possible to put on 30 LBS of muscle in a 4 month off-season without anabolics. If you don't believe that most of the superstars of the past dozen years have been juicing, then there is wool over your eyes.

Caminiti admitted it. Canseco admitted it. Giambi apologized for it. Palmerio was caught. Somehow Bonds made the most dramatic transformation of them all, and he did not use steroids?

Re: Steroid issue from a \"personal\" viewpoint
 

anecdotal evidence aside, I think Jihads main point is that you can see gains of 30 lbs of muscle with supplements that are not neccesarily steroids. The biggest problem with that statement and Bonds transformation is the age of Bonds when said transformation occured. Is it possible? Sure. Is it likely? who knows.

Re: Steroid issue from a \"personal\" viewpoint
 

Jihad,

From the summer of my Freshman and Sophmore year in college I decided to dedicate myself to gaining muscle since I was thin. I was 6'3 168 lbs after my Freshman season of baseball in college, I went to play in a baseball league in Alaska and came home within a week with the decision that gaining weight/muscle was more important. I dedicated my summer to this. When I got to school when the summer was over I was 6'3 205lbs and not fat, but thick and strong. I was forced to take a steroid test by our team strength and conditioning coach/trainer b/c he wanted to make sure I wasn't lying to him. Of course I passed.

I passed b/c I was young and still at a growing stage of my life, this kind of weight was obtainable for many reasons. Barry simply cannot grow anymore at his age without the help of something such as HGH. Steroids won't even make him look like he does, HGH is known to make your bones larger b/c it makes your bones actually grow...and is why his head has become bigger and why Sammy's cheeks have looked like they were about to poke out of his face and they can make your forehead pertrude as well.

Some athletes actually do get bigger later in their career because their metabolism is so much slower and they put on a little weight, and then when you work your butt off you can have the powerful appearance but still have that soft outer shell, a la Roger Clemens. He is a big man and in great shape, but he has a soft little layer to him b/c of his age. Barry his huge and ripped which is fairly impossible to become at that age if you are naturally skinny like Barry is.

Re: Steroid issue from a \"personal\" viewpoint
 

Barry has been injecting 1000cc's of pure horse jizz directly into his pituitary gland for the past 7 seasons or so.

This is common knowledge, I can't believe you didn't know.

Re: Steroid issue from a \"personal\" viewpoint
 

[ QUOTE ]
anecdotal evidence aside, I think Jihads main point is that you can see gains of 30 lbs of muscle with supplements that are not neccesarily steroids. The biggest problem with that statement and Bonds transformation is the age of Bonds when said transformation occured. Is it possible? Sure. Is it likely? who knows.

[/ QUOTE ]

With all due respect, you don't know what you're talking about. It is not possible to gain 30 lbs of muscle in a 4-month off-season without "help". No one's body synthesizes protein--> muscle that quickly naturally. This is science, not anecdotal evidence.

Re: Steroid issue from a \"personal\" viewpoint
 

tdarko,

It is still possible with age. I spotted my own father on his 49th birthday on his "test run" while he cleared 185 lbs. on the bench. I laughed when he said he would be benching 300 on the morning of his 50th birthday. I smiled with my arm around him, taking pictures of the 330 lb bar he just finished clearing on the morning of his 50th. With dedication and hard work, and yeah some supplementation - be it legal or illegal - the body knows no bounds. People are too quick to blame pretty much everybody that has any significant growth lately of taking steroids.

Re: Steroid issue from a \"personal\" viewpoint
 

jihad, do you understand the difference in physique between a bunch of normal guys and a major league baseball star who has been in the league for 10 years?

Re: Steroid issue from a \"personal\" viewpoint
 

[ QUOTE ]
tdarko,

It is still possible with age. I spotted my own father on his 49th birthday on his "test run" while he cleared 185 lbs. on the bench. I laughed when he said he would be benching 300 on the morning of his 50th birthday. I smiled with my arm around him, taking pictures of the 330 lb bar he just finished clearing on the morning of his 50th. With dedication and hard work, and yeah some supplementation - be it legal or illegal - the body knows no bounds. People are too quick to blame pretty much everybody that has any significant growth lately of taking steroids.

[/ QUOTE ]

My father seems eerily similar to maybe yours, he is the type that climbs mountains and loves to push himself as far as possible. He is a health nut and lifts weights 4 times a weeks and runs 10-12 miles a day 5 days a week. Today, in his upper 40's (he had me at a young age) he is in probably his best shape of his life. Still, though he looks great, a body of a twenty-something...it still doesn't compare to what Barry has morphed into.

You are right that people are quick to blame when they see someone getting bigger. They see a guy get huge and they automatically judge him and say, "steroids" w/o knowing him. The body can stretch and it's limitations can breach further than one can realize with some work and dedication. This doesn't have to do with Barry though.

For instance, if I was 205lbs and if a season wore me down and I dropped down into the 190-193 range, when the season was over I could gain back to 205 with ease. The weight that you hold can always be easily obtained but to gain into unmarked territory and balloon is trickier, and takes time. I could go a month and gain 2 lbs of muscle. Barry has turned himself into a different person, not just some guy that increased his bench bress by remarkable numbers...to be honest I have known many guys that have used steroids that weren't all that strong, their muscles were just juiced up. So your father accomplished a goal, most likely from hard work...maybe a great diet, some supplements, and thats success. But I am sure your father still looks like your father.

~td

Re: Steroid issue from a \"personal\" viewpoint
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
anecdotal evidence aside, I think Jihads main point is that you can see gains of 30 lbs of muscle with supplements that are not neccesarily steroids. The biggest problem with that statement and Bonds transformation is the age of Bonds when said transformation occured. Is it possible? Sure. Is it likely? who knows.

[/ QUOTE ]

With all due respect, you don't know what you're talking about. It is not possible to gain 30 lbs of muscle in a 4-month off-season without "help".

[/ QUOTE ]yeah, you are most likely right, he probably only lifts during the offseason, and even more likely only started lifting seriously during that offseason.

Re: Steroid issue from a \"personal\" viewpoint
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
anecdotal evidence aside, I think Jihads main point is that you can see gains of 30 lbs of muscle with supplements that are not neccesarily steroids. The biggest problem with that statement and Bonds transformation is the age of Bonds when said transformation occured. Is it possible? Sure. Is it likely? who knows.

[/ QUOTE ]

With all due respect, you don't know what you're talking about. It is not possible to gain 30 lbs of muscle in a 4-month off-season without "help".

[/ QUOTE ]yeah, you are most likely right, he probably only lifts during the offseason, and even more likely only started lifting seriously during that offseason.

[/ QUOTE ]

BTW, before you jump all over me, I am merely just arguing for the sake of arguing because I think Jihad has a legitimate point here.

Re: Steroid issue from a \"personal\" viewpoint
 

Jihad,
Big difference in transforming your body as a sophmore and as a 35 year old athlete. You lost fat, built muscle and got ripped. Barry added 30 lbs of muscle.

Re: Steroid issue from a \"personal\" viewpoint
 

[ QUOTE ]
Good point, Jihad. I feel the same way, but good luck trying to convince those who already made up their minds and just ignore the facts to suit their needs.



[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Steroid issue from a \"personal\" viewpoint
 

OK, so jihad, after doing all of that work for, now imagine putting on another 30 pounds of muscle. You can't right? But it might be possible with steroids.

Re: Steroid issue from a \"personal\" viewpoint
 

[ QUOTE ]
It is not possible to gain 30 lbs of muscle in a 4-month off-season without "help". No one's body synthesizes protein--> muscle that quickly naturally. This is science, not anecdotal evidence.

[/ QUOTE ]

The 30lbs number is anecdotal, however. Which season are you proposing Bonds gained 30lbs in 4 months? By all acounts his "growth" was gradual over the course of 2-3 years.

Re: Steroid issue from a \"personal\" viewpoint
 

[ QUOTE ]

OK, so jihad, after doing all of that work for, now imagine putting on another 30 pounds of muscle. You can't right? But it might be possible with steroids.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I'm 235 now, and probably only 10 of that is fat, so yes, I can imagine it. It's completely possible, even without help. I'm not saying he didn't, I'm just saying that the point that a lot of people have been making, that these kinds of gains are impossible, are flat out incorrect.

Re: Steroid issue from a \"personal\" viewpoint
 

[ QUOTE ]
Jihad,
Big difference in transforming your body as a sophmore and as a 35 year old athlete. You lost fat, built muscle and got ripped. Barry added 30 lbs of muscle.

[/ QUOTE ]

There was a more gradual addition than that. Just look at his pictures, he's been gaining at least a little weight since about '93.

Re: Steroid issue from a \"personal\" viewpoint
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying he didn't, I'm just saying that the point that a lot of people have been making, that these kinds of gains are impossible, are flat out incorrect

[/ QUOTE ]

As a corollary to that point, alot of folks also point out that his HR production increased at ages 35-39 from his production at 30-34 years old, and point to his career high being posted after age 35, but there are other examples of clean players who had similar advanced-age power surges, so it doesn't really "prove" anything about whether or not he juiced.

Obviously, that is not to say he is clean or not, but more like your original point, it doesn't show proof alone that he juiced as accomplishments similar to these have been done before by clean players.

It merely shows it CAN be done without steroids, thus the argument that it occured should not be used as proof of steroid use.

Re: Steroid issue from a \"personal\" viewpoint
 

[ QUOTE ]


As a corollary to that point, alot of folks also point out that his HR production increased at ages 35-39 from his production at 30-34 years old, and point to his career high being posted after age 35, but there are other examples of clean players who had similar advanced-age power surges, so it doesn't really "prove" anything about whether or not he juiced.



[/ QUOTE ]
This is the funniest thing I've read yet.

Re: Steroid issue from a \"personal\" viewpoint
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is the funniest thing I've read yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's so funny about it? I'm not saying it shows Bonds as clean, not even close, I am ONLY saying that for a hitter to have a surge in power after age 35 without the use of steroids is definately plausible and has happened before.

Re: Steroid issue from a \"personal\" viewpoint
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is the funniest thing I've read yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's so funny about it? I'm not saying it shows Bonds as clean, not even close, I am ONLY saying that for a hitter to have a surge in power after age 35 without the use of steroids is definately plausible and has happened before.

[/ QUOTE ]

would you mind naming a few examples so we know who your talking about?

Re: Steroid issue from a \"personal\" viewpoint
 

[ QUOTE ]
would you mind naming a few examples

[/ QUOTE ]

How about the most obvious and relevant example when we are talking about homerun production, Barry Bonds, and hitting the ball harder and farther as you get older.

Henry Aaron
ages 30-34: 33 HR's per year
ages 35-39: 41 HR's per year

24% increase in yearly power production after age 35, over and above his production during the "peak years" of 30-34.

Age at which he achieved career high in homeruns?

Henry Aaron: Age 37

Hammerin' Henry hit over 40 homers *once* between the ages of 30-34, but accomplished it *three* times between the ages of 35-39, and just barely missed out on a fourth.

As Henry got older, he got stronger, and he got more productive at the plate. He had 'only' 510 HR's when he turned 35.

He hit the remainding 245 (about one-third of his career total) AFTER turning 35.

Moral of the story:

Anyone who argues that a power surge in production after age 35 is evidence of juicing in and of itself...I would ask you if you use that same logic consistently towards everyone, or just when it comes to Barry Bonds?

Re: Steroid issue from a \"personal\" viewpoint
 

And for reference, let's look at admitted steroid users comparative numbers, and see how they fared after age 35:

Ken Caminiti
ages 30-34: 24 HRs per year
ages 35-38: 18 HRs per year

25% decrease.

Jose Canseco
ages 30-34: 31 HRs per year
ages 35-36: 13 HRs per year

58% decrease.



Seems when it comes to this theory of power production going up after age 35 in relation to steroids, Bonds has alot more in common with Henry Aaron, and way less than the polar opposite in admitted steroid users Caminiti and Canseco.

Several known steroid users production DECREASED dramatically between 35-39 compared to 30-34.

Henry Aaron and Barry Bonds INCREASED.

So much for that theory being "proof of juice", eh?

Re: Steroid issue from a \"personal\" viewpoint
 

[ QUOTE ]
And for reference, let's look at admitted steroid users comparative numbers, and see how they fared after age 35:

Ken Caminiti
ages 30-34: 24 HRs per year
ages 35-38: 18 HRs per year

25% decrease.

Jose Canseco
ages 30-34: 31 HRs per year
ages 35-36: 13 HRs per year

58% decrease.



Seems when it comes to this theory of power production going up after age 35 in relation to steroids, Bonds has alot more in common with Henry Aaron, and way less than the polar opposite in admitted steroid users Caminiti and Canseco.

Several known steroid users production DECREASED dramatically between 35-39 compared to 30-34.

Henry Aaron and Barry Bonds INCREASED.

So much for that theory being "proof of juice", eh?

[/ QUOTE ]

hey Redbean,
How come you never answered my question in the other thread?

I'm sure you saw it.

Here it is again:

"simple question Redbean. if you HAD to guess one way or the other when asked this question:

Has Barry Bonds ever used HGH or steroids?

What would you say? You have 2 options:

Yes I think so
No I don't think so.

No other answers are possible."

Re: Steroid issue from a \"personal\" viewpoint
 

Kneel, sorry I must have missed the question previously.

I don't really have any opinion, since I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, and when you look deeply at all the factors, it just isn't clearcut definitive either way. There is certainly a mountain of circumstantial evidence surrounding him, but there isn't a smoking gun.

But that said, if I had to guess, just absolutely had to guess based on your possible two answers, I would *guess* yes to HGH and no to steroids.

And no to steroids only because he hasn't failed any of the tests since they started the testing program in 2002, and that is a matter of record.

And strangely enough, I recieved a deptotestosterone shot this morning from my physician as treatment for a case of nagging acute bronchitis I've been trying to shake for over a week. Supposed to help clear me up, but I guess I've ruined my chances at the Hall of Fame..eh?

The nerve of me to mess with the "integrity of life" by using the aid of these new-fangled medical advancements to prolong and enhance it.

And to think, I would have missed another 3 days of work if I hadn't gotten it....hmm....

Re: Steroid issue from a \"personal\" viewpoint
 

You didn't receive anabolic steroids, proving you have no idea what you're talking about. You can try out for MLB and it would not be detected as illegal, and it was prescribed by a physician, not illegially obtained.

Re: Steroid issue from a \"personal\" viewpoint
 

OJ used steroids and Bonds killed the Goldmans

Re: Steroid issue from a \"personal\" viewpoint
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
would you mind naming a few examples

[/ QUOTE ]

How about the most obvious and relevant example when we are talking about homerun production, Barry Bonds, and hitting the ball harder and farther as you get older.

Henry Aaron
ages 30-34: 33 HR's per year
ages 35-39: 41 HR's per year

24% increase in yearly power production after age 35, over and above his production during the "peak years" of 30-34.

Age at which he achieved career high in homeruns?

Henry Aaron: Age 37

Hammerin' Henry hit over 40 homers *once* between the ages of 30-34, but accomplished it *three* times between the ages of 35-39, and just barely missed out on a fourth.

As Henry got older, he got stronger, and he got more productive at the plate. He had 'only' 510 HR's when he turned 35.

He hit the remainding 245 (about one-third of his career total) AFTER turning 35.

Moral of the story:

Anyone who argues that a power surge in production after age 35 is evidence of juicing in and of itself...I would ask you if you use that same logic consistently towards everyone, or just when it comes to Barry Bonds?

[/ QUOTE ]

interesting stuff there

maybe Hank was on the juice

Re: Steroid issue from a \"personal\" viewpoint
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

OK, so jihad, after doing all of that work for, now imagine putting on another 30 pounds of muscle. You can't right? But it might be possible with steroids.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I'm 235 now, and probably only 10 of that is fat, so yes, I can imagine it. It's completely possible, even without help. I'm not saying he didn't, I'm just saying that the point that a lot of people have been making, that these kinds of gains are impossible, are flat out incorrect.

[/ QUOTE ]

Buddy, your thread sucks and you have no idea what you're talking about. Case in point: you're 235 and only 10 of that is fat... riiiight so you have 4.2% body fat. *rolleyes*

Distorted anecdotal stories from people who have no idea what they're talking about suck.

Re: Steroid issue from a \"personal\" viewpoint
 

[ QUOTE ]
.

I don't really have any opinion, since I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, and when you look deeply at all the factors, it just isn't clearcut definitive either way. There is certainly a mountain of circumstantial evidence surrounding him, but there isn't a smoking gun.

But that said, if I had to guess, just absolutely had to guess based on your possible two answers, I would *guess* yes to HGH and no to steroids.

And no to steroids only because he hasn't failed any of the tests since they started the testing program in 2002, and that is a matter of record.



[/ QUOTE ]
There is a mountain of circumstantial evidence yet because there is no smoking gun you give the guy a pass. Most criminal cases are built on circumstantial evidence, rarely is there a "smoking gun".
And you say no to steroids because he didn't test positive. He was using before they had testing and later moved on to the undetectable HGH. The testing plan sucked then and still is a joke today. You have to be an idiot to test positive. And lets not forget the "flaxseed oil" he was using, that was a steroid. But I guess OJ, Robert Blake, etc..all get the benefit of a doubt.

Re: Steroid issue from a \"personal\" viewpoint
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

OK, so jihad, after doing all of that work for, now imagine putting on another 30 pounds of muscle. You can't right? But it might be possible with steroids.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I'm 235 now, and probably only 10 of that is fat, so yes, I can imagine it. It's completely possible, even without help. I'm not saying he didn't, I'm just saying that the point that a lot of people have been making, that these kinds of gains are impossible, are flat out incorrect.

[/ QUOTE ]

Buddy, your thread sucks and you have no idea what you're talking about. Case in point: you're 235 and only 10 of that is fat... riiiight so you have 4.2% body fat. *rolleyes*

Distorted anecdotal stories from people who have no idea what they're talking about suck.

[/ QUOTE ]

What I meant was that I've gained the 40 pounds, and only 10 of the gain has been fat. There are pictures of me floating around on this board, I'm not ripped anymore. I am, however, big. Don't be such a queef.