HOH wrong: AK is worth a call???
 

I love HOH, and I followed much of Dan's advice to the letter for several months. Unfortunately, my online tournament results were in the black, but just barely. I found myself getting ITM much more than my fair share but FTing very few times, unless the deck ran over me. If you don’t get 1st to 4th more often than you deserve, you will be a big loser overall.

About 3 months ago, I made several changes to my game, after studying the results of hundreds of MTTs I had played.

My results over the next few hundred MTTs have improved dramatically I’m happy to say.

One of the significant changes had to do with how I played AK. IN HOH , Dan says AK is "worth a call" from a mid position raiser ( page 190). In my new and improved strategy, I will almost always ( usual caveats of stack size, etc) re-raise a 3x BB mid position raiser with a very healthy raise of usually 10-12x the BB. Now if a very tight player ( PT 12/7) raised UTG or UTG+1, I would probably fold. Others UTG openers based on read I might reraise. I can't recall the last time I just flat called an opening raiser pre flop with AK.

I can’t think of a common case ( I’m sure there is a corner case based on stack size, position in the tournament, etc) where you should flat call a open raiser preflop with AK.

If there is open raiser in MP and a reraiser in LP, I will often go all in with AK from the blinds if I have them covered or close to it, and by folding they still have a lot of chips remaining. I would never just call OOP with AK, but in some cases may decide to fold.


The key to getting 4th or better is to have few showdowns. The only way to do this is to come over the top in a big way when you have a hand that can stand up to most ranges, and then hope for folds. I'd say an average range for MP open raisers is AT+, 88+ , KQ which consists of 9.2% of hands ( 122 combinations) What will a typical player call a 12xBB reraise with? Let's say TT-AA, AQo+ . You must consider that the chances of a player holding AA or KK is just 50% of what it would be if you didn’t have AK, and the chances of AK are reduced to 9/16 of normal.

For the mathematically inclined, there are only 49 hands out of 122 that will call the reraise, 3 are AA, 3 are KK, 9 are AK, 16 are AQ and 18 are TT-QQ.


To make the calculation simple, let’s assume both players are all in upon calling the reraise and you are not a blind.

60% win 100% of the time 4.5BB when player folds

40% of the time play for 25.5BBs

Of that 40%

37% win 45% of the time 25.5BB vs QQ<JJ<TT
18% of the time split pot for .75BB vs AK
33% win 75% of the time 25.5BB vs AQ
6% win 6% of the time 25.5BB vs AA
6.% win 31% of the time 25.5BB vs KK

The EV is minus -0.75 BBs for the 40% of the time that you are all in, and +4.5BB for the 60% of the time you don’t see a showdown for a net 2.5BB.

Even without the calculations, I know it is working in my modest sample, as you must accumulate chips to have a shot at 1st through 4th, and there is no way you can do that if AK is just “ worth a call”.

Re: HOH wrong: AK is worth a call???
 

Have you read his 2nd book? He talks about stealing, restealing, pushing etc... against the right people at the right time. Certainly with hands much weaker than AK.

I don't re call a passage in either book that says you should always call with AK, especially not late in a tournament.

Re: HOH wrong: AK is worth a call???
 

As a mathematician, I do like pretty numbers but such analysis is almost totally spurious. It has value of course, but saying that "that the chances of a player holding AA or KK is just 50% of what it would be if you didn’t have AK" isn't much help when someone actually does raise. They are less likely to have the holding in the first place, true, but if there are not many to act then not reraising because you are afraid of someone else having KK or AA is poor value. You have AK quite often, but AK v KK or AA very rarely.

Still, nice comments.

Re: HOH wrong: AK is worth a call???
 

With deep money in a major tournament, it is OK to just call with AK. This is also true in a cash game.

With shallow money and bad loose players, you should generally reraise.

I generally like to reraise with AK with deep money in tournaments and cash games. For one thing, I don't want people to know a reraise is QQ-AA. Even if they are not keeping track of me, there is some deception in reraising with AK, as you can represent an overpair on the flop.

Re: HOH wrong: AK is worth a call???
 

I've been calling a lot with AK late in tournies and loving it.

I took down $15k in a $500+30 six-handed $600k guaranteed event last week (this is irrelevant, I know, but I am very happy) and I flat called raises three times in position with AK. On each occasion an ace flopped (which is obviously lucky).On two occasions, I took down monster pots, calling down the weaker ace's betting. On the other occasion, the flop came AQ10 monotone. I didn't have the suit and folded quite happily to OR's flop bet.

Now, in the first two cases, I think the reraise pre-flop is going to close down the action afterwards. I stacked them both times. The second time, OR had AQ and he's probably coming all the way. The first time, A10 may not call a reraise pre-flop and if he has, I doubt he's putting his whole stack in, whether I slow play or make a move.

On the third occasion, I would be much less willing to let this pot go on what was clearly a very dangerous flop if I'd reraised pre-flop and the c-bet, p-bet or v-bet gave me good odds to call - but what good can come of it?

I'm going to be flat-calling AK a lot more in future...

Re: HOH wrong: AK is worth a call???
 

I don't mind calling when it's early and stacks are deep and I'm looking to score a lot of chips from a worse top pair. However, that stage of an online tournament doesn't last very long.

Re: HOH wrong: AK is worth a call???
 

HOH1=mostly deepeer stack, early stages. Here, I see calling with AK generally to be the better play.

HOH2=late stage play. Here, I see reraising/pushing with AK generally to be the better play.

Obviously, other variables will factor in as well.

Re: HOH wrong: AK is worth a call???
 

[ QUOTE ]
HOH1=mostly deepeer stack, early stages. Here, I see calling with AK generally to be the better play.

HOH2=late stage play. Here, I see reraising/pushing with AK generally to be the better play.

Obviously, other variables will factor in as well.

[/ QUOTE ]
Basically. Flatcalling, especially in position, with AK and deep money is absolutely fine and often preferable. And in later stages with shallow money you almost always re-shove with it, and harrington would say the same thing. I don't know how saying AK is "worth a call" in one example became "always just call with AK". He doesn't even imply that a litttle bit.

Re: HOH wrong: AK is worth a call???
 

Raising helps getting value for your A or K when they hit on the flop and you don't get any action, plus can let you rep a better hand when they don't hit, plus it buys you the button (usually), plus you have the control in the hand.

Raising a PF raiser gives you a lot more options for later in the hand.

I [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] raising PF raisers PF.

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: HOH wrong: AK is worth a call???
 

i have also read HOH. both of them in fact. I see your point, and often i will raise with AK. I think though that Dan's advice is more applicable in live games, where players tend to be more experienced (if your in the right game). in live games an UTG raise will have your AK beat more frequently than online raise, i think. All the same, i play AK more aggresively live too.

Re: HOH wrong: AK is worth a call???
 

you should never always do something. (unless it involves calling all in w/ AA....and even then)

Re: HOH wrong: AK is worth a call???
 

I think we all tend to overthink things while we play.
- I will sometimes call, sometimes reraise with stacks >30xBB. It depends on a lot, but mosty position.

-<25xBB, my only goal is to get all of my money in PF, unless it is a strange spot like a button limps, and SB folds, and I have 25x in the BB. It is very rare for me to call with AK <30x.

Re: HOH wrong: AK is worth a call???
 

[ QUOTE ]
you should never always do something. (unless it involves calling all in w/ AA....and even then)

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto. But then this is getting into playing hands differently in order to confuse opponents. Example, playing 76 the same as you might play AK. Such as raising the same amount each time with either hand be it UTG or in LP. Lame example I know, but you get the idea.

Re: HOH wrong: AK is worth a call???
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you should never always do something. (unless it involves calling all in w/ AA....and even then)

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto. But then this is getting into playing hands differently in order to confuse opponents. Example, playing 76 the same as you might play AK. Such as raising the same amount each time with either hand be it UTG or in LP. Lame example I know, but you get the idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like to reraise preflop with both AK and 76s. This makes it harder for opponents to read me.

Re: HOH wrong: AK is worth a call???
 

I agree with the replies, depth of stacks is something overlooked by the OP, but it's one of the biggest considerations that I make when deciding if I'll call or RR with AK.

Re: HOH wrong: AK is worth a call???
 

I skimmed HOH2 again, and except for Red Zone play, I don't see an example or text that advocates making a reraise of a preflop open raiser with AK, but I could be wrong. Could you point me to one?

Re: HOH wrong: AK is worth a call???
 

[ QUOTE ]
On the other occasion, the flop came AQ10 monotone. I didn't have the suit and folded quite happily to OR's flop bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

That seems weak-tight. I might fold, but I certainly wouldn't be happy about it. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: HOH wrong: AK is worth a call???
 

[ QUOTE ]
I skimmed HOH2 again, and except for Red Zone play, I don't see an example or text that advocates making a reraise of a preflop open raiser with AK, but I could be wrong. Could you point me to one?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you understand the theory behind the surface of HOH2, you won't need a hardfast rule on how to play a specific hand.

Re: HOH wrong: AK is worth a call???
 

[ QUOTE ]
I skimmed HOH2 again, and except for Red Zone play, I don't see an example or text that advocates making a reraise of a preflop open raiser with AK, but I could be wrong. Could you point me to one?

[/ QUOTE ]

Keep in mind "Action Dan" is one of the most conservative players ever.

Re: HOH wrong: AK is worth a call???
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I skimmed HOH2 again, and except for Red Zone play, I don't see an example or text that advocates making a reraise of a preflop open raiser with AK, but I could be wrong. Could you point me to one?

[/ QUOTE ]

Keep in mind "Action Dan" is one of the most conservative and most successful players ever and still would advocate a preflop reraise/push with AK in most situations late in tournaments.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP.

Re: HOH wrong: AK is worth a call???
 

I am confident that the re-raise is still a better play than flat calling even with deep stacks, but the difference between the two plays is not as great as with smaller stacks.

Other posts in this forum have discussed the "reverse implied odds" of AK on the flop, as you only see 3 of the 5 cards that can make your hand. AK is difficult to play when you miss the flop, even when you have position, and you will miss it most of the time. With AK in the blinds, I can't see how a call versus reraise would be the optimum play.

And if the original raiser comes over the top of your reraise, is that so bad? The only hand that destroys you is AA, and I tend to like getting all my chips in preflop with AK deep stacks even early in the tournament. You have to get lucky and have a lot of chips at the FT to get 4th or better, so why not start right here.

Re: HOH wrong: AK is worth a call???
 

Well, it's the happiest I've ever been folding tptk. What's can he have that I'm ahead and how many chips is it going to take me to find out?

Probably worth me posting the hand.

Re: HOH wrong: AK is worth a call???
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I skimmed HOH2 again, and except for Red Zone play, I don't see an example or text that advocates making a reraise of a preflop open raiser with AK, but I could be wrong. Could you point me to one?

[/ QUOTE ]

Keep in mind "Action Dan" is one of the most conservative and most successful players ever and still would advocate a preflop reraise/push with AK in most situations late in tournaments.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was referring to his deepstack play of AK, mainly covered in HOH1.

Re: HOH wrong: AK is worth a call???
 

I completely agree with your assessment, but you should also add more variations of Ax to the range. It's just sick how often villain will call (all-in) with AJ/AT/Ax in tournaments with relatively small buyins (<$200+15).

Additionally, Dan's advice is (afaik) meant for tournaments with a slower blind-structure than what is commonly seen in online tournaments.

Re: HOH wrong: AK is worth a call???
 

I disagree with the statement that you should be willing to go all-in with AK while deep, however I do see your rationale.

The issue is, your fold equity goes while gain goes down, HOWEVER; your exectations are greatly reduced in the cases you do get a call while playing deep.

Re: HOH wrong: AK is worth a call???
 

The mental shift I made that is working for me so far is best described in Lindgren's book. He suggests that you should find reasons to get involved in hands, rather than wait for the ideal situation.

AK all in deep stacks preflop early in the tournament, after an open MP raiser, you reraise and the original raiser goes all in and you call, is a "risky" play and probably slightly -EV considering that hand alone. But often you will prevail, and having a huge lead deep stacks allows you to limp in with a lot of speculative hands while the blinds remain low, and then stack someone who overvalues TPTK. When I am fortunate enough to be at or close to the chip leader by the end of the first hour, my chances of making the FT are over 10X what they would otherwise be. Which makes the AK all in a very positive EV move overall in my view. This is especially true in rebuy tournaments.

Re: HOH wrong: AK is worth a call???
 

Agree that Dan would advocate in late stages, but I am advocating it in the early and middle stages as well. I'm pretty certain that Dan does not advocate that, and thats why, at least for on line play of $100 buy in and up, I believe HOH is "wrong".

Re: HOH wrong: AK is worth a call???
 

[ QUOTE ]
And if the original raiser comes over the top of your reraise, is that so bad? The only hand that destroys you is AA, and I tend to like getting all my chips in preflop with AK deep stacks even early in the tournament. You have to get lucky and have a lot of chips at the FT to get 4th or better, so why not start right here.

[/ QUOTE ] If you have 50+BB and get all-in with AK you are typically making a pretty large mistake. You are advocating getting your money in as a (significant) dog early on (you are against AA-QQ a lot here)?

Re: HOH wrong: AK is worth a call???
 

50BB is unusual on line. I was thinking on line deep stack is 30 to 40. I think the range is bigger for the original raiser to go all in. You must include AK and some players sem to do this even with mid pairs like JJ.

I already raised 12BB, so if we both have 35BB, my pot odds are 23BB versus the 48.5 already in the pot, or better than 2:1. If the raiser is extremely tight, I would probably fold, but often I would call.

AA-3, KK-3, QQ-6, JJ-6, AK-9 are the possible holdings.
Expect a return of 30BB out of the 71.5 in the pot so odds are about 1.5.

Once I've made the big raise, it is correct to call unless you are certain the villian would only do this with AA and KK, and not AK.

Re: HOH wrong: AK is worth a call???
 

im with you on this...but most people here think my post flop play is tight

Re: HOH wrong: AK is worth a call???
 

What Dan Harrington is referring to is equivalent to 50BB stack play, I believe. And you also advocated always reraising in a cash game where you almost always have 50-200BB effective stack sizes. Also, it takes until level 3 on pokerstars for the starting stack size to be 30BB. I think you've talked yourself into a corner.

Re: HOH wrong: AK is worth a call???
 

[ QUOTE ]
What Dan Harrington is referring to is equivalent to 50BB stack play, I believe. And you also advocated always reraising in a cash game where you almost always have 50-200BB effective stack sizes. Also, it takes until level 3 on pokerstars for the starting stack size to be 30BB. I think you've talked yourself into a corner.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cash game? I didn't mention a cash game. I ran the numbers for 70BB as I was incorrect and you are correct about the first few levels, and if you believe the all in reraiser would do that with AK as well as AA and KK, then calling or folding are a wash. When it's a wash, I will call to build up a stack early or bust out, but that's just what my preference is as I play much better with a very deep stack.