Calling allins with low PP ITM
 

Party Poker
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t300/t600
3 players

Stack sizes:
Button: t7052
Hero: t7205
BB: t5743

Pre-flop: (3 players) Hero is SB with 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
<font color="#cc0000">Button raises all-in t7052</font>

This is a call just about every time, right? I suppose it's very basic so I found out I couldn't play another SnG without knowing.

Re: Calling allins with low PP ITM
 

No it ain't.

Re: Calling allins with low PP ITM
 

whoa. do not call here. it is likely that the absolute best you are here is a coinflip. since button has almost the exact same stack as you, this would not be advisable. no need to flip coins for one's tournament life when you still have 12xBBs.

Re: Calling allins with low PP ITM
 

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This is a call just about every time, right?

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Ummm, no. If he is pushing with 22+,A2+,K2+,Q9o+,Q5s+,JTo,J8s+,T9s it is a nuetral call. If he's pushing anything less than top 40%, it's negative. If he is pushing with top 20%, 33+,A4o+,A2s+,KJo+,KTs+, it is -1%. So it depends on how aggressively he's been pushing.

Re: Calling allins with low PP ITM
 

This is such a fundamentally easy fold that you need to make sure you understand the concept fully before going any further.

When you call here you are either going to be a small favorite or a huge underdog. You have very little invested in this pot and are getting terrible pot odds.

Re: Calling allins with low PP ITM
 

[ QUOTE ]
whoa. do not call here. it is likely that the absolute best you are here is a coinflip. since button has almost the exact same stack as you, this would not be advisable. no need to flip coins for one's tournament life when you still have 12xBBs.

[/ QUOTE ]

This, and the other posts here are correct. This is a very important sort of thing to understand.

The two exercizes which should follow are:

When putting your opponent on a standardish range of pushing hands, what hands should you call with, including what minimum pocket pair?

How does this calling range change with the same stacks but escalating blinds? And for novelty, at what blinds level would calling here with 44 be profitable (note that it is likely htat as the blinds increase you will also have to adjust your standard raising ranges for your opponents.

c

ps: the exercise, which is good to do by hand, is doable with sngpt, probably in incredibly deep detail, in about 2 hours, and is easilly worth at least 10 times the cost of the program all by itself, to a player who plays a fair deal. Alternatively, several people have posted modeling results about push call ranges for different stack depths, and an understanding of karlson-sklansky by itself, while good, isn't quite enough to be perfect

Re: Calling allins with low PP ITM
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
whoa. do not call here. it is likely that the absolute best you are here is a coinflip. since button has almost the exact same stack as you, this would not be advisable. no need to flip coins for one's tournament life when you still have 12xBBs.

[/ QUOTE ]

This, and the other posts here are correct. This is a very important sort of thing to understand.

The two exercizes which should follow are:

When putting your opponent on a standardish range of pushing hands, what hands should you call with, including what minimum pocket pair?

How does this calling range change with the same stacks but escalating blinds? And for novelty, at what blinds level would calling here with 44 be profitable (note that it is likely htat as the blinds increase you will also have to adjust your standard raising ranges for your opponents.

c

ps: the exercise, which is good to do by hand, is doable with sngpt, probably in incredibly deep detail, in about 2 hours, and is easilly worth at least 10 times the cost of the program all by itself, to a player who plays a fair deal. Alternatively, several people have posted modeling results about push call ranges for different stack depths, and an understanding of karlson-sklansky by itself, while good, isn't quite enough to be perfect

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.fiftiesweb.com/tv/lone-ranger-jhda.jpg

Re: Calling allins with low PP ITM
 

Okay.. I understand that it's gonna be a coinflip. I figured it was a call since I will be a big favourite for first if I win. I don't think he was pushing more than 40% here so the call was maybe okay anyway, I see that SnGPT is something I'll definetely need to purchase.

Re: Calling allins with low PP ITM
 

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Okay.. I understand that it's gonna be a coinflip or I'm a huge underdog .

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FYP

Re: Calling allins with low PP ITM
 

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Okay.. I understand that it's gonna be a coinflip or I'm a huge underdog .

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FYP

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Yeah, I know that too, but since his range includes a lot more non PPs which I am about 55% against, the average should be about coinflip. Isn't that a reasonable way of thinking, ignoring that I'm not necessarily correct to call anyway given the "deep" stacks?

And when I'm posting anyway, I just realised that the BB in the hand should of course have some impact on the calculations. He would probably be extremely tight since he is now almost guaranteed 2nd. How much will a BB with a say 10% range affect this as opposed to me having the decision in the BB with him already folded?

Re: Calling allins with low PP ITM
 

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I don't think he was pushing more than 40% here so the call was maybe okay

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huh?

c

Re: Calling allins with low PP ITM
 

Bottom Lines:

- You have 12xBBs
- You are ITM
- You have position at the table such that you will likely not be pushing into a stack that covers you, unless a hand changes relative chipstacks in the near future. That is, you will be pwning shortie's BB whenever BTN does not enter a pot.
- If you win the coinflip you will be in excellent position to come in first. Then again, if you lose, you will likely have no chance of coming in any place but third.
- You can find spots to a) get chips while avoiding showdowns and picking up the SB/BB which are a significant % of chips in play; b) get your chips in with a greater advantage than 55/45.

Re: Calling allins with low PP ITM
 

i'm not sure if you meant to reply to me or the other guy.

you've been spot on both times you've posted in this thread, the second time with a greater thought process being presented. these are a bunch of the reasons why calling in such spots is wrong. the questions i asked in my earlier posts are some that almost everyone should spend more time looking at if they want to learn to win copious amounts of money. the "huh" was directed at the quoted passage, and i don't think your post goes to that?

c

Re: Calling allins with low PP ITM
 

nope, meant to reply to the OP. no worries.

fwiw, i agree that the exercises you've outlined are immensely helpful and everyone should do them (numerous times if you're willing to invest that kind of time/energy). also, doing icm calcs by hand (even if only once or twice) is about a 8726972346% better way to learn and understand ICM than using SNGPT.

EDIT: I was similarly "huh?"ing myself as to the 40% comment.

Re: Calling allins with low PP ITM
 

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I was similarly "huh?"ing myself as to the 40% comment.

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I bet he is reading HOHII. Harrington has broke down hands for heads up into 10% 20% etc. etc.

Pocket 44 falls into the Top 30% which is better then top 40% but not for calling a push with here.

Yes doing the calcs manually is much more usefull as it gives an understanding of how chip-stack sizes are related pushing ranges.

Re: Calling allins with low PP ITM
 

The 40% comment got through the preview. I wrote it, realised that it was of course the other way aroud and clicked "post" instead of editing it away. Just disregard it.

Re: Calling allins with low PP ITM
 

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I don't think he was pushing more than 40% here so the call was maybe okay anyway, I see that SnGPT is something I'll definetely need to purchase.

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You've got this backwards. If he's pushing less than top 40% of hands here, you should fold. The fewer hands he's pushing, the worse call it is.

Re: Calling allins with low PP ITM
 

Yep, after commiting the critical act of actually using my brain it appeared obvious.. Just forgot to fix it

Re: Calling allins with low PP ITM
 

Gigabet would call here. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Disclaimer: This means nothing about right or wrong.

Re: Calling allins with low PP ITM
 

people calling me in this spot has to be my biggest pet peeve.

thats right, even bigger than minraising behind 3-5 limpers.

These 2 behaviors have me convinced that people like swings.

Re: Calling allins with low PP ITM
 

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I just realised that the BB in the hand should of course have some impact on the calculations. He would probably be extremely tight since he is now almost guaranteed 2nd.

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i think you're asking what big blind is calling with here?

Lets just say if hes smart enough to have survived to age 18 to play legally on party poker, hes folding all but aa/kk/qq here.

Re: Calling allins with low PP ITM
 

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people calling me in this spot has to be my biggest pet peeve.

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Is making money a pet peeve of yours as well?

Re: Calling allins with low PP ITM
 

how does someone calling when they have the advantage make me money?

Re: Calling allins with low PP ITM
 

True, the person who is receiving the benefit is the person not involved with the hand. It's an annoying fact that in SNGs other peoples bad decisions can hurt both of you.

Re: Calling allins with low PP ITM
 

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It's an annoying fact that in SNGs other peoples bad decisions can hurt both of you.

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ya, this is definitly my biggest source of tilt. beats don't bother me anymore, but when I get bubbled because the big stack played every hand wrong, I get incredibly annoyed.

Re: Calling allins with low PP ITM
 

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It's an annoying fact that in SNGs other peoples bad decisions can hurt both of you.

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ya, this is definitly my biggest source of tilt. beats don't bother me anymore, but when I get bubbled because the big stack played every hand wrong, I get incredibly annoyed.

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then play cash games.

c

Re: Calling allins with low PP ITM
 

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how does someone calling when they have the advantage make me money?

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Have you been paying attention? He doesn't have the advantage. With your range that you will make these moves with, you have the advantage. Just because he had the edge this time doesn't make it a good call, and hence, you should welcome it as opposed to making it your "pet peeve". Come on... this is Poker 101.

Re: Calling allins with low PP ITM
 

This example isn't perfect because I'm not really pushing in this spot with a big range, but in similar spots where both stacks are relatively healthy, although not as healthy as here, hes making a marginal call where he doesn't have to where I have no advantage = variance = annoying.

Re: Calling allins with low PP ITM
 

I'd trade variance for higher EV any day. But if not, then I can see your point.

Re: Calling allins with low PP ITM
 

You're reading but you aren't really understanding. 44 is a favorite over AliasMrJones's given range where the call is neutral. cEV+ doesn't mean $EV+. This is SNG 101. Villian hates getting called there, the player that wins when OP calls is the guy who isn't involved in the hand.