**** Official Patriots - Broncos Thread ****
 

There was lots of early dicussion about this game in the Jags/Pats thread, so I figured I would start this thread up early.

some questions from Myrtle:

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For the sake of discussion.......

Denver's run defense will pretty much do a good job in stopping Pats running game.

Pats run defense (now healthy, jelled & much improved) will do a good job in stopping Broncos running game.

At that point it's passing offense vs. passing offense of both teams.

Who has the advantage then?


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with Myrtle that each team is going to have trouble running in this game. a great running attack vs a great run defense, and an unproven/inconsistent running attack vs a good run defense.

Re: the passing attacks, Brady is obviously much better than Plummer, and the NE set of WR's/TE's is probably a wash against the Denver group. not a big advantage either way. the OL of Denver is better than the NE OL, but the Pats pass rush is much better than Denver's, which was one of the worst in the league.

The defensive backfield of the Pats is much improved, but the edge still needs to go with the Denver unit I think.

I think this matchup, all told, isn't a bad one for the Pats. Belicheck loves to be able to take away one thing from an offense, and if he can do that against the run this week, the Patriots will pull the upset.

Re: **** Official Patriots - Broncos Thread ****
 

i think you can boil this game down to almost one key stat. denver turnovers. denver holds on to the ball - they win. i know i'm over simplifing it a lot, but it's been a theme to their season.

and i also think you are understimating denver's running game at least just a little bit.

all told - this game figures to be the first great game of the playoffs so far. too bad the winner has to go to indy.

Re: **** Official Patriots - Broncos Thread ****
 

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and i also think you are understimating denver's running game at least just a little bit.

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Denver has a great running game. but I think the Pats run defense is as good as any in the NFL right now, and I think great run defenses tend to stop great run offenses.

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all told - this game figures to be the first great game of the playoffs so far. too bad the winner has to go to indy.

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Yup. OT, I think the 4 AFC teams are the 4 best teams in the NFL

Re: **** Official Patriots - Broncos Thread ****
 

You're not giving nearly enough credit to the huge edge Denver's pass defense has over NE's pass defense.

Re: **** Official Patriots - Broncos Thread ****
 

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You're not giving nearly enough credit to the huge edge Denver's pass defense has over NE's pass defense.

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the Denver secondary is certainly better than NE's. the secondary is the weak spot on NE, but they are playing better than they have all season. as John Clayton mentions, they are basically playing w/ 4 cornerbacks back there, which has helped w/ pass coverage (and hurt run defense/tackling). that's why it's so critical for the Patriots to be able to stop the run w/ 7 guys, and leave 4-5 back for pass coverage.

also, when you rate the potential effectiveness of these units, I think it's important to compare the units they will be facing (ie Brady and his units vs Plummer and his). and I'll take Brady/Branch/Givens/Watson/Graham over Plummer/Smith/Lelie/Putzier/Alexander any day of the week, and this edge is enough to offset the talent edge the Broncos have in their defensive backfield.

basically, I see this as a pretty even matchup, w/ the Bronco's favored b/c of HFA

Re: **** Official Patriots - Broncos Thread ****
 

one of plummer's (actually by far his greatest) strengths is the roll out pass off of play action. NE's ability to defend that (stay at home when they are trying so desperatly to stop the run up front) will also be very interesting.

for me, the most intriguing coaching match up of the playoffs is shanahan/belichek.

Re: **** Official Patriots - Broncos Thread ****
 

Should be a good game and should be close. I think the Broncos have their hands full and may well lose. All year doubters (like me) have been waiting for Plummer to have the bad game. He hasn't collapsed yet. But what better time than against a good experienced well-coached team in the playoffs? We'll see. And the fact the Patriots lost once to them this year bothers me. Different team now, but seems like its still hard to beat a good team twice in the same year for whatever reason.

Re: **** Official Patriots - Broncos Thread ****
 

[ QUOTE ]
Should be a good game and should be close. I think the Broncos have their hands full and may well lose. All year doubters (like me) have been waiting for Plummer to have the bad game. He hasn't collapsed yet. But what better time than against a good experienced well-coached team in the playoffs? We'll see. And the fact the Patriots lost once to them this year bothers me. Different team now, but seems like its still hard to beat a good team twice in the same year for whatever reason.

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Yes, I think people are vastly underestimating the Jake Plummer factor.
Does this remind anybody of 2001 when Kordell Stewart was an MVP candidate during the regular season? How can anybody NOT envision Plummer's season ending the same way? I know the Pats aren't as good as the last 2 years, but they're still better than the luckbox team that won it in 2001, especially Brady.

Re: **** Official Patriots - Broncos Thread ****
 

[ QUOTE ]
Should be a good game and should be close. I think the Broncos have their hands full and may well lose. All year doubters (like me) have been waiting for Plummer to have the bad game. He hasn't collapsed yet. But what better time than against a good experienced well-coached team in the playoffs? We'll see. And the fact the Patriots lost once to them this year bothers me. Different team now, but seems like its still hard to beat a good team twice in the same year for whatever reason.

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here's a post I made in another thread about the differences betwene the first game and the upcoming game. granted, the Bronco's are also improved.

"Looking back on the first game, here are some notable differences then/now from the Patriots perspective

Offense:
Corey Dillon didn't play
Kevin Faulk didn't play
2 rookies, OG Mankins and OT Kazcur, were still in "thrown into the fire" mode. these guys are both playing well now, and were not back then. in fact, here is an interesting qoute from after the game:

''We knew where to attack," confirmed Denver defensive end Trevor Pryce. ''The [quarterback pressure] was planned. We were going at those two young guys [Nick Kaczur and Logan Mankins]. They knew it. The guard [Mankins], he couldn't deal. But give the tackle [Kaczur] credit. He's not bad."

the offense still scored 20 points, which isn't terrible. the real problem was...

Defense:
(front 7)

Richard Seymour didn't play
Tedy Bruschi didn't play
Rose Colvin wasn't being featured yet/Vrabel was still playing OLB. So, the starting ILB's were Chad Brown and Monty Beisel, 2 guys who don't figure to play much at all (if any) this time around. The Broncos ran for about 170 yards the first time around, which I really doubt will be possible this time.

(Backfield)
Disasterous Duane Starks (who gave up 2 huge plays this game) had yet to be injured/replaced by Ellis Hobbs

the rest of the young guys (Sanders, Samuel), similar to the OLineman, really weren't playing well yet
Plummer really shredded this unit, to the tune of 17-24, 262 yards,2 TD's, O int.

Although this unit is still the weakness of the Pats, I'm not sure if Plummer can be this effective again."

Re: **** Official Patriots - Broncos Thread ****
 

Yeah, in my post I should have sain "it's a different team now and..." in tead of "but" I think the patriots are a lot stronger now.

Re: **** Official Patriots - Broncos Thread ****
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Should be a good game and should be close. I think the Broncos have their hands full and may well lose. All year doubters (like me) have been waiting for Plummer to have the bad game. He hasn't collapsed yet. But what better time than against a good experienced well-coached team in the playoffs? We'll see. And the fact the Patriots lost once to them this year bothers me. Different team now, but seems like its still hard to beat a good team twice in the same year for whatever reason.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I think people are vastly underestimating the Jake Plummer factor.
Does this remind anybody of 2001 when Kordell Stewart was an MVP candidate during the regular season? How can anybody NOT envision Plummer's season ending the same way? I know the Pats aren't as good as the last 2 years, but they're still better than the luckbox team that won it in 2001, especially Brady.

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I don't know. Plummer seems to be making better decisions this year consistantly, and is a much better QB than he ever has been before. Stewaret was a mismaatch- average teams couldn't deal with him, but he was still young and once his bad game started he fell apart. Plummer is actually a veteren at this point, as much as i have enjoyed his rollout fumbles returend for TD's to get the over in the past, i don't think that i would bet on it happening in this game.

Re: **** Official Patriots - Broncos Thread ****
 

Belicheck today on HFA in Denver:

- the new stadium isn't as loud as the old one
- the "thin air" factor will be the least of the Patriots worries...in general it's overrated

Re: **** Official Patriots - Broncos Thread ****
 

[ QUOTE ]
Belicheck today on HFA in Denver:

- the new stadium isn't as loud as the old one
- the "thin air" factor will be the least of the Patriots worries...in general it's overrated

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oh, well if Belicheck is spinning it that way then they'll definitely beat the Broncos. good update.

Re: **** Official Patriots - Broncos Thread ****
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Belicheck today on HFA in Denver:

- the new stadium isn't as loud as the old one
- the "thin air" factor will be the least of the Patriots worries...in general it's overrated

[/ QUOTE ]

oh, well if Belicheck is spinning it that way then they'll definitely beat the Broncos. good update.

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[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: **** Official Patriots - Broncos Thread ****
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Belicheck today on HFA in Denver:

- the new stadium isn't as loud as the old one
- the "thin air" factor will be the least of the Patriots worries...in general it's overrated

[/ QUOTE ]

oh, well if Belicheck is spinning it that way then they'll definitely beat the Broncos. good update.

[/ QUOTE ]

I laughed when I read this. Good stuff trying2learn.

Re: **** Official Patriots - Broncos Thread ****
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Belicheck today on HFA in Denver:

- the new stadium isn't as loud as the old one
- the "thin air" factor will be the least of the Patriots worries...in general it's overrated

[/ QUOTE ]

oh, well if Belicheck is spinning it that way then they'll definitely beat the Broncos. good update.

[/ QUOTE ]

I laughed when I read this. Good stuff trying2learn.

[/ QUOTE ]

so he says that the stadium isnt as loud as the old one and that the air is the least of their concerns (meaning the actual players on denver are what he is worried about) and its scoffed at?

Re: **** Official Patriots - Broncos Thread ****
 

Sublime, please don't quote utm, I have him on ignore [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: **** Official Patriots - Broncos Thread ****
 

i was just joking with kb4z...and he obviously got it - hence the [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: **** Official Patriots - Broncos Thread ****
 

[ QUOTE ]
There was lots of early dicussion about this game in the Jags/Pats thread, so I figured I would start this thread up early.

some questions from Myrtle:

[ QUOTE ]
For the sake of discussion.......

Denver's run defense will pretty much do a good job in stopping Pats running game.

Pats run defense (now healthy, jelled & much improved) will do a good job in stopping Broncos running game.

At that point it's passing offense vs. passing offense of both teams.

Who has the advantage then?


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with Myrtle that each team is going to have trouble running in this game. a great running attack vs a great run defense, and an unproven/inconsistent running attack vs a good run defense.

Re: the passing attacks, Brady is obviously much better than Plummer, and the NE set of WR's/TE's is probably a wash against the Denver group. not a big advantage either way. the OL of Denver is better than the NE OL, but the Pats pass rush is much better than Denver's, which was one of the worst in the league.

The defensive backfield of the Pats is much improved, but the edge still needs to go with the Denver unit I think.

I think this matchup, all told, isn't a bad one for the Pats. Belicheck loves to be able to take away one thing from an offense, and if he can do that against the run this week, the Patriots will pull the upset.

[/ QUOTE ]

Another thing to consider is Belichick's record against quaterbacks he sees for the second time in one season. After last years playoffs, the Patriots were 15-0 against quarterbacks the second time around. I have not been able to find an updated version of this stat for this year, but I'd have to imagine that this trend holds. Expect a tough day for Jake the Snake and a Patriots victory.

Re: **** Official Patriots - Broncos Thread ****
 

Denver wins big. 10 point victory in this one.

Re: **** Official Patriots - Broncos Thread ****
 

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Denver wins big. 10 point victory in this one.

[/ QUOTE ] bold

Re: **** Official Patriots - Broncos Thread ****
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Denver wins big. 10 point victory in this one.

[/ QUOTE ] bold

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while i won't say that i think that will happen...everyone here sure seems to think this is insane. they beat them by 8 earlier in the year...and it wasn't even nearly that close. i'm the first to admit that the pats are much better now...but a ten point victory by the broncos doesn't seem like as, "bold" a prediction to me as it does to you.

Re: **** Official Patriots - Broncos Thread ****
 

You can bet your bankroll good buddy. Boris's 10 Star Shoe In Of the YEAR.

Re: **** Official Patriots - Broncos Thread ****
 

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You can bet your bankroll good buddy. Boris's 10 Star Shoe In Of the YEAR.

[/ QUOTE ]


....Will you be betting yours?

Re: **** Official Patriots - Broncos Thread ****
 

Pat Rush O- Sucks...no one is afraid of Dillon/Faulk
Pat Oline- Average to poor
Pat QB--Awesome....the only reason Pats are in the playoffs.
Pat WR-- Average..they are all small..which poses problems when you face physical corners.

Den Rush Off--Awsome...best in the league given they have two solid if not stud inside runners--MAnderson and RDayne..and for my molney I think Dayne is better....add in a speed back who can both run inside and turn a sweep into a 60 yard TD and you have serious problems.

Den Oline--Solid..one of the best in the league

Den QB-Decent...not the most accurate passers and can make bonehead plays...but also can make plays that 99 other QBs could never pull off. Only 7 INT's....2 were hail marys.

Den WR- Decent...Rod Smith is better than any of NE WR's...and Ashlie Leslie is fast...but besides that they're average.

X-factor....The fact that Plummer is a running QB with a dominate run game.
This is what decides games.

Defense wise they are both even.

Denver has a better secondary and quicker LB's. both have solid run stuffing dlines and Pats pass rush is better.

Special Teams..only advantage is on the punting side for Den.

Re: **** Official Patriots - Broncos Thread ****
 

[ QUOTE ]
Pat Rush O- Sucks...no one is afraid of Dillon/Faulk
Pat Oline- Average to poor
Pat QB--Awesome....the only reason Pats are in the playoffs.
Pat WR-- Average..they are all small..which poses problems when you face physical corners.

[/ QUOTE ]

I won't comment on your analysis of Denver because to be honest I haven't followed them enough all year to debate it. But I think you're off with your breakdown of the Pats.

Rushing offense has been deterred by the fact that both Dillon and Faulk were inactive for many games. Faulk has rounded nicely back into shape and has looked real good lately including last week. Dillon must be dinged up because he's much better than he has shown. But it wouldn't surprise me to see him break out.

O-Line: Average to poor you say. That's a big range. They're average which is good enough with Brady at the helm.

WR: Average you say. They are very underrated because Brady spreads the ball around so much. But they are all sure handed and get open, definitely above average.

Re: **** Official Patriots - Broncos Thread ****
 

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WR: Average you say. They are very underrated because Brady spreads the ball around so much. But they are all sure handed and get open, definitely above average.

[/ QUOTE ]

also, David Givens is not small.

he didn't evaluate TE's, but Watson/Graham are both above average

I'm expecting more of out Corey Dillon than most people. The OL had trouble w/ Jax, which contributed to Dillons trouble. for some reason, Faulk had much more room on his runs than Dillon did.

anywho, Dillon has clearly been banged up this year, but he ran hard/effective (at times) last week, and I think he'll be good enough that the Bronco's will need to respect the run

Re: **** Official Patriots - Broncos Thread ****
 

IMO the Broncos are the ones who should be complaining about respect. The quietly found themselves with a 13-3 record which in most years would be good enough for the number one seed.

Re: **** Official Patriots - Broncos Thread ****
 

[ QUOTE ]
IMO the Broncos are the ones who should be complaining about respect. The quietly found themselves with a 13-3 record which in most years would be good enough for the number one seed.

[/ QUOTE ]

one of the queietest 13-3 seasons in recent memory. overshadowed early by the Colts, late by the Patriots

Re: **** Official Patriots - Broncos Thread ****
 

And Denver might just find itself quietly in the Super Bowl.

Re: **** Official Patriots - Broncos Thread ****
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
IMO the Broncos are the ones who should be complaining about respect. The quietly found themselves with a 13-3 record which in most years would be good enough for the number one seed.

[/ QUOTE ]

one of the queietest 13-3 seasons in recent memory. overshadowed early by the Colts, late by the Patriots

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they also were slightly overshadowed IMO by the struggles of the chargers..."best team not to make playoofs blah blah blah"

Re: **** Official Patriots - Broncos Thread ****
 

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And Denver might just find itself quietly in the Super Bowl.

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I've been thinking this for quite some time now. Been contemplating putting some money down.

Re: **** Official Patriots - Broncos Thread ****
 

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You can bet your bankroll good buddy. Boris's 10 Star Shoe In Of the YEAR.

[/ QUOTE ]


http://performify.com/simpsons-shoe.jpg

Re: **** Official Patriots - Broncos Thread ****
 

KB4Z - i think we should have an avatar bet. jake plummer for you (if the donkeys win), and your patriot choice for me should it go your way. whattya say? it can last as short as - until the winning team loses. if they go on to win the superbowl...you use the avatar until opening day of the baseball season or so.

the line has been drawn in the sand. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: **** Official Patriots - Broncos Thread ****
 

[ QUOTE ]
KB4Z - i think we should have an avatar bet. jake plummer for you (if the donkeys win), and your patriot choice for me should it go your way. whattya say? it can last as short as - until the winning team loses. if they go on to win the superbowl...you use the avatar until opening day of the baseball season or so.

the line has been drawn in the sand. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

you're on!

I'll have to think of a good avatar. and I say we keep the avatar until the end of the football season, although I'm flexible there.

gl!

Re: **** Official Patriots - Broncos Thread ****
 

deal...i'll be searching as well. i just figured it was a good idea since we've started our friendly little rivalry here.

agreed on end of football season...should be fun...i'll try to be near a computer for game updates.

gl to you as well.

Re: **** Official Patriots - Broncos Thread ****
 

[ QUOTE ]
deal...i'll be searching as well. i just figured it was a good idea since we've started our friendly little rivalry here.

agreed on end of football season...should be fun...i'll try to be near a computer for game updates.

gl to you as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

unfortunately (or fortunately) I'm in Europe, and may be watching this game tape delayed Sunday morning sometime ('live' kickoff would be at 2am local time...we'll see how my jet lagged ass is doing [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img])

Re: **** Official Patriots - Broncos Thread ****
 

bump...

okay, i know we're still six plus hours away...but i'm freaking excited. hopefully the skins/hawks game is good because if it's a blow-out the afternoon is going to go sooooo slow.

Re: **** Official Patriots - Broncos Thread ****
 

cant wait either! should be a great game.

Re: **** Official Patriots - Broncos Thread ****
 

almost off the first page and an hour to game time, time for a bump. GO PATS!