The lack of class.
 

Maybe i'm just an old timer, but have you guys noticed a considerable lack of class in the the poker world (online/bm). Nowadays i can't even go to a room w/o people trash talking each other and berating the other person.

Take for example these forums, there tends to be a certain lack of class everywhere. People making smart aleck remarks and using profanity constantly.

I notice this in the workplace, school and everywhere. there just doesn't seem to be any class anymore and a lot of people tend to have oversized egos.

Re: The lack of class.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe i'm just an old timer, but have you guys noticed a considerable lack of class in the the poker world (online/bm). Nowadays i can't even go to a room w/o people trash talking each other and berating the other person.


[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. And it is usually a sign that the game is good. If it bothers you too much just turn off the chat.

Re: The lack of class.
 

Class is subjective, if everyone is an a-hole, it means you are a prude. Winner.

Re: The lack of class.
 

THere are common generally accepted norms that are considered classy and unclassy.

For example, profanity and insults are considered by general consensus to be unclassy.

Re: The lack of class.
 

The comment is not whether game is good. THe question is if there has been a less classy community and the overall poker culture/society has been coarsened to classlessness.

Re: The lack of class.
 

people have been going on about this sort of [censored] since time began. learn to live with it, or u may be pigeon holed as a boring old git.

Re: The lack of class.
 

You are right... but as far a poker goes, those things are mostly tell tale signs of their biggest weakness, pride & arrogance. Pride & arrogance in small doses are fine, but too often those are the things that get my set paid off for their entire stack when they hit TP/TK.
I’m really surprised that pride & arrogance aren’t discussed more in this forum. I think, as far as psychology is concerned, I haven’t yet found a more profitable weakness to exploit. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: The lack of class.
 

The answer is undoubtedly yes. But with anything, it's how you handle it that makes it easier to deal with. You can't focus on it because that's why poker players flex their ego. They want you on tilt. Ignore, laugh at it, whatever it takes, but play your game and let it be what it will be.

For the record, it sucks. I don't play poker like that or like playing with people like that. I don't do much online gaming because I think it lacks the "Soul" that Poker has in person.

Re: The lack of class.
 

The answer is a definate no.

Re: The lack of class.
 

actually no. Again, the question is not whether one should live with it or not. the question is whether it is getting worse or not.

I judge by your repsonse its always been like this.

I disagree. The rudeness that happens seems to arise from two reasons. First, it is because of lack of social repercussion. Whether online or the real world, you would not act in certain ways if you were in a smaller community because of social repercussions (following the norms). Also, due to anonymity and the way our culture is constructed, people tend to say more extreme things to get their point across or to get attention.

Re: The lack of class.
 

Actually yes. Its our threshold of 'shock' that has risen.

Re: The lack of class.
 

I hate how people in card rooms go apeshit when they win like a 20 dollar pot, and think it's the world series of poker and they are on TV.

Re: The lack of class.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe i'm just an old timer, but have you guys noticed a considerable lack of class in the the poker world (online/bm). Nowadays i can't even go to a room w/o people trash talking each other and berating the other person.

Take for example these forums, there tends to be a certain lack of class everywhere. People making smart aleck remarks and using profanity constantly.

I notice this in the workplace, school and everywhere. there just doesn't seem to be any class anymore and a lot of people tend to have oversized egos.

[/ QUOTE ]

Welcome to the internet, where human decency and social tact have officially left the building....

Seriously though, I've been an avid Message Board visitor for about the last ten years, and more and more I start notice that people are treating each other worse and worse. Personally, I blame the lack of realistic human interaction for this phenomenon. Also, I blame the fact that when people interact in casinos, and over the internet, its usually under the notion that they'll probably never have to be in contact with that person again, and if they so chose, they never have to see that person again.

It's actually a well documented occurence, scientifically. Axelrod actually wrote a book on strategies where he delves into how a potential for future interactions change how people (and all organisms) behave in the present.

So, it works like this, as societies expand and populations increase, tight-knit communities unwind. More and more of people's daily interactions are based on the concept of 'I'll never see this this person again', so they do not feel obligated to behave in a decent manner. Therefore, this phenomenon increases in occurence more and more. I guarantee you if you put people in a situation where they have to live together, in a tightly knit community, they would eventually start treating each other with decency and respect.

So - in short, blame society.

Re: The lack of class.
 

[ QUOTE ]
people have been going on about this sort of [censored] since time began. learn to live with it, or u may be pigeon holed as a boring old git.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, they haven't actually. I'm sure if you bothered to look into this topic you would find that this phenomenon is actually a result from an ever-expanding civilization where people's interactions with each other are becoming less and less frequent, so it decreases the amount of energy and thought people put into how they appear to other people, because how they appear to other's is becoming less and less significant.

Re: The lack of class.
 

[ QUOTE ]
actually no. Again, the question is not whether one should live with it or not. the question is whether it is getting worse or not.

I judge by your repsonse its always been like this.

I disagree. The rudeness that happens seems to arise from two reasons. First, it is because of lack of social repercussion. Whether online or the real world, you would not act in certain ways if you were in a smaller community because of social repercussions (following the norms). Also, due to anonymity and the way our culture is constructed, people tend to say more extreme things to get their point across or to get attention.

[/ QUOTE ]

Finally! Someone else who actually analyzes the beef of the issue. You sir are a great man.

Re: The lack of class.
 

Anonymity breeds courage.

Re: The lack of class.
 

Nice post, Aver.

In human situations, where you'll see someone again, you don't want them to hate you, and you may need a favor sometime in the future, people have good reasons to be polite.

On the internet, where no one knows you, what you look like, or where you live, those considerations disappear.

What you're seeing is people's true nature - how'd they'd act in the absense of peer pressure and social constraints.

That's why I hate them.

Re: The lack of class.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Actually yes. Its our threshold of 'shock' that has risen.

[/ QUOTE ]

100% agreed.

Re: The lack of class.
 

Gawd quit your snivelling whining and get over it!


j/k guys [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]


I agree with the OP. It's getting worse (or at least my perception is that is the case). The increased population is one part and the anonymity of the internet is another. Same phenomenon occurs in heavy traffic. How many times a day do I have to give someone the finger that cuts me off? I'm not flipping off James Harwood, 31 year old male, father of 3 who is late for his youngest daughter's piano recital. I'm flipping off a black jetta.

Every few months the wife and I head back to rural eastern WA and it completely goes away. No one is rushing anywhere.. I don't mind if the car in front is going 5 mph under the speed limit. People wave as you drive past. I don't hate people over there.


-Bostaevski

Re: The lack of class.
 

Popularity of poker among younger people-->greater volume of immature people in player pool-->more immaturity at the table.

Not rocket science here, guys.

Re: The lack of class.
 

[ QUOTE ]
people have been going on about this sort of [censored] since time began.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, since the begining of time. Like for you that would be around 1990 or so eh?

j/k


sorta

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]


[ QUOTE ]
learn to live with it, or u may be pigeon holed as a boring old git.

[/ QUOTE ]

Better that than a spoiled immature brat who can get off no other way than by insulting people from behind a computer monitor.

Re: The lack of class.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe i'm just an old timer, but have you guys noticed a considerable lack of class in the the poker world (online/bm). Nowadays i can't even go to a room w/o people trash talking each other and berating the other person.

Take for example these forums, there tends to be a certain lack of class everywhere. People making smart aleck remarks and using profanity constantly.

I notice this in the workplace, school and everywhere. there just doesn't seem to be any class anymore and a lot of people tend to have oversized egos.

......

actually no. Again, the question is not whether one should live with it or not. the question is whether it is getting worse or not.

I judge by your repsonse its always been like this.

I disagree. The rudeness that happens seems to arise from two reasons. First, it is because of lack of social repercussion. Whether online or the real world, you would not act in certain ways if you were in a smaller community because of social repercussions (following the norms). Also, due to anonymity and the way our culture is constructed, people tend to say more extreme things to get their point across or to get attention.

[/ QUOTE ]

BRAVO! Thank you Phanekim. Things are getting worse and it drives me nuts. Don't get me wrong, I'm not perfect but it makes me rejoice (I'm not a git!) that others notice it also; you nailed this one right on the head.

I would love to see a time where people were civil, used manners, and perhaps had a general awareness of others.

Re: The lack of class.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Popularity of poker among younger people-->greater volume of immature people in player pool-->more immaturity at the table.

Not rocket science here, guys.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems to be a contributing factor, but it seems to be oversimplified. I've seen people of all ages, ethnicities, beliefs, etc. slide..

Re: The lack of class.
 

Dont trouble yourselves with these dead beats. Most people are big heads in some form. Next time is happens: get a pair of Y fronts and put them on your head.

Re: The lack of class.
 

[ QUOTE ]
THere are common generally accepted norms that are considered classy and unclassy.

[/ QUOTE ]

They are "generally accepted" by only small slices of particular societies. They are by no means universal.

[ QUOTE ]
For example, profanity and insults are considered by general consensus to be unclassy.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no broad consensus as to what constitutes "profanity" or "insult". For example, in some social contexts, my disagreeing with you publicly constitutes an insult. In many others, your stance of insisting that the etiquette of your community is universal would be seen as particularly obnoxious and patronizing insult.

Do not confuse your own narrow, parochial upbringing with the way things ought to be in all the world. The world is a very big place, and poker players come from all social strata all around it, from the slums of Johannesberg to the townhouses of Singaporan merchant princes.

Here in the US, B&M poker rooms are one of the most socially and ethnically diverse environments I know. The only consensus about manners and class boil down to the rules and standards of the poker room itself -- and there is considerable resistance to some of those. (For example, in my opinion only a racist jerk would insist on the enforcement of the English Only rule. I've played in clubs where it would make more sense to enforce a Vietnamese- or Tagalog-only rule, and for me to learn the appropriate words for "check", "bet", "raise", and "fold", than to enforce the English-Only rule actually in place.)

If you can't handle the diversity of poker, maybe you should stick to a more ethnically and socially uniform game like golf or tennis.

Re: The lack of class.
 

Eh, people have been acting without class for quite a while. I first played poker at Bicycle Club a few months after turning 21 in 1993. When I played there, and at Commerce, I typically was the youngest person in the house. It was not at all like it is now...there were very few young people playing.

So I got to play with all the old low limit nits. They were pretty damm good about complaining and hurling racial slurs, particularly at the female asian dealers.

I guess some of the WPT type crap...the celebrating and stuff...didn't exist back them, but people were still plenty rude and discourteous.

One of my least treasured moments was winning the first casino tournament I ever entered. I entered a $10 w/rebuys stud hi/lo tournament at Bike on a Friday at noon. For those of you that don't know, these were a pretty big deal back then with even the occasional pro playing...kinda the only game in town type thing...and they used to attract 80-120 players. Anyway, I got down to heads up and people were talking about making a deal....I had no clue what it was. People were talking trash about me too. I win the tournament and over $800. A big deal to me as my bi weekly paycheck was barely more than that and I had never played higher than $3-6. On the way to cash out, I get hit up for money by people I never met, including one guy that is just hounding me for a lucky chip. I told him to f-off. Still pisses me off that these jerks would not leave me alone and let me enjoy something like this.

Re: The lack of class.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
THere are common generally accepted norms that are considered classy and unclassy.

[/ QUOTE ]

They are "generally accepted" by only small slices of particular societies. They are by no means universal.

[/ QUOTE ]
Finally a grown up view here on twoplustwo.

Social etnocentricity, it's called.

The wanna-be-upper-middle class with increasing desperation trying to impose their (wished for) cultural standards on everybody else.

Like the rule against saying f*** during the WSOP. A tournament instigated by a man (a convicted killer BTW) who would never take such a word in his mouth.

LMF***ingAO.

McMelchior (Johan)

Re: The lack of class.
 

I read once about a list of symptoms associated with a sick society. Rudeness was the one where you knew things were really bad.

Re: The lack of class.
 

This boring old git finds the low level of online gaming chat shocking and unsporting and much too much of the tone in forums unkind, unamusing, arrogant and sophomoric. I have no clue whether this is due to a general decline of Western Civilization or simply down to the anonymity of the internet and the relative immaturity of its community.

One takes the wheat from the chaff. I hate to turn off chat because I might miss a read. And sifting for gold on 2+2 is no different that any other chore.

There is a cultural component. The Irish, for instance, regardless of class, wouldn’t dream of spewing antisocial invective at each other over an internet game. And when they’re playing among each other on a national site, like Paddy Power, they will always comment on how much more pleasant it is to have a game in the absence of Americans. (Of course, it’s a small country, and perfect anonymity is impossible to achieve.)

Re: The lack of class.
 

Ummm....the status quo is conservative. Young blood is revolutionary. Its pretty standard. Those who are in a position to actually observe change over time are those most inclined to disparage said change.

Re: The lack of class.
 

In general, you are right on the money. This is not just a poker phenomenon, but yeah one bad beat on the river and the insults start flying, live or online. There really is no need for it.
Regards,
Carl

Re: The lack of class.
 

The answer is definitely yes. Antiquated notions of civlity and "proper" discourse are one thing, but it's a long way from there to simply being a prick.

Too many time outs, not enough spankings by parents and beatings by peers.

It is usually those most in need of the above who advocate the notion that one can say anything to anyone at anytime without any repercussions.

Re: The lack of class.
 

Some of these responses make me laugh. Being rude is revolutionary? And someone who doesn't approve of rude behavior is wrong for trying to force his cultural views on other people? Most of the time when I hear responses like this, I think someone is just trying to justify acting like a jerk. A little common sense will tell you that certain types of behavior aren't acceptable regardless of the circumstances.

Bringing Class Back to Poker
 

The discussion of the alleged lack of class among today's poker players reminds me of a conversation with Bonnie Damiano I had at the 2004 WSOP:

[ QUOTE ]
A second $50-$100 stud/8 table had just been started, and it had a seat waiting for me. Bonnie Damiano was at the table, wearing a ClassicPoker.com blazer. She was due to be interviewed by a crew from CBS News imminently, about online poker. "I'm going to tell them what's different about Classic Poker," she told us.


"What is different about Classic Poker?" I said.


"It's classier! The software is classier, the graphics look great, and players are going to be well-dressed."


"Does that mean," I asked, "that we won't be able to play online in our underwear?"

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: The lack of class.
 

I agree that things are getting worse in terms of conversation and general etiquette, but it isn't all that surprising to me, and I think the world would be an unfamiliar place indeed without e-thugs. You don't think you'd miss them, but you would.

[ QUOTE ]
Ummm....the status quo is conservative. Young blood is revolutionary. Its pretty standard. Those who are in a position to actually observe change over time are those most inclined to disparage said change.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree. Much of the profanity is coming from a conservative group of people. My evidence is that the conservative side of things usually posesses those two special traits we call insecurity and arrogance. I'm not talking strictly politically, either. Incumbents, given the opportunity, will completely contradict their own "values" much of the time to experience some sort of thrill...sort of why lots of people play poker, men that explicitly mention they would "never hit a woman" tend to beat their wives, etc.

Maybe this doesn't hold any water, but I've noticed at in least online poker rooms these archetypes love surfacing often. Also, you'd better be careful if the right combination of these people get together in a casino where the alcohol's free and the shirts are hawaiian...table talk and excessive chip riffling CAN induce migranes.

Re: The lack of class.
 

I agree, the conservatives are insecure, thats why they are conservative. Things are the way you like, so you want to conserve them, and therefore resist change.

You make it sound like there is some objective standard of social conduct. I wear a hat when I play, even indoors. How boorish.

Re: The lack of class.
 

Who's insulting who here?

Re: The lack of class.
 

[ QUOTE ]
blame society.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: The lack of class.
 

There has to be at least SOME standard of social conduct one might consider objective...there are just some rules that a society needs to survive. Now whether being rude has anything to do with these rules is another aspect of things I have no proof for.

As for the hat thing, doesn't your head get hot in those?

Re: The lack of class.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree, the conservatives are insecure, thats why they are conservative. Things are the way you like, so you want to conserve them, and therefore resist change.

You make it sound like there is some objective standard of social conduct. I wear a hat when I play, even indoors. How boorish.

[/ QUOTE ]

So if I object to a toxic waste dump being proposed next to my house I'm being insecure? There's no other explanation of why I may not want that change?