5/10 TP
 

how bad is this!?


Villian is 30/15 slight LAG


PokerStars 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP3 folds, SB folds, BB calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (10 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12 BB

Re: 5/10 TP
 

It's not AWFUL. You'll find very little support for limping UTG around here. Don't think it would hurt to raise this one up.

I'm much more comfortable raising turn donks when I'm comfortable folding to a 3-bet or looking forward to a 3-bet, neither of which are the case here. I'd rather just call it down, and hope he's just trying to deny the free card with KT or A7. You're missing 1BB of value sometimes, but also won't have to face any difficult decisions.

Re: 5/10 TP
 

i play it the same. God i hate retard rodeo hands like this. Let me guess, he shows you 6-4?

Re: 5/10 TP
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's not AWFUL. You'll find very little support for limping UTG around here. Don't think it would hurt to raise this one up.

[/ QUOTE ]

i never raise KJs UTG. i don't think its very wise to in any games except ultra loose ones where you expect lots of cold callers. i limp pretty much always.

if you raise KJs UTG you're only going to end up playing against hands that have you completely dominated and these hands will 3-bet you. raising it UTG can drastically lower the number of playing situations where this hand plays well. thats where its profit comes from. i don't want to cut out these situations.

other than that depending on my own reads on the player i might just call the turn donk and call the river...if not i might be able to fold to the turn 3-bet. it depends.

Re: 5/10 TP
 

[ QUOTE ]
if you raise KJs UTG you're only going to end up playing against hands that have you completely dominated and these hands will 3-bet you.

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If that's true, you have horrible game selection skills.

Raising KJs UTG is standard for me, and I get called by worse hands very frequently.

Re: 5/10 TP
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you raise KJs UTG you're only going to end up playing against hands that have you completely dominated and these hands will 3-bet you.

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If that's true, you have horrible game selection skills.

Raising KJs UTG is standard for me, and I get called by worse hands very frequently.

[/ QUOTE ]

for the rest of us mortals, the amount of money you lose playing against hands that have you beat outweighs the times you get called by KT, QJ or QT etc.

i play at 5/10 and 10/20 and raising this UTG will more than likely (not all the time) result in winning the blinds or being 3-bet. and out of those times a crappy player calls you cold, they then can hold many other hands besides those you dominate.

also, what happens if you raise UTG with KJs and a player decides to just call with KQ or maybe even AK. You are going to be spewing if a K comes on the flop.

KJ is a trap 1 pair hand a majority of the time. when its suited its a greatest strengths are flush and straight possibilities. Why would you want to raise and be basically trying to eliminate playing this hand multi-way? There is only 1 situation where you would want to do this: a loose loose game where many people are calling 2 bets cold with anything.

you could find these uber-loose games at .5/1 but at 5/10 i've yet to find one this loose. and my game selection is pretty good.

Re: 5/10 TP
 

I'll raise KJs every single time UTG.
It is a very good hand. You don't wan't hand like
AT, QJs or other hands raise you. You want them out.

Re: 5/10 TP
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'll raise KJs every single time UTG.
It is a very good hand. You don't wan't hand like
AT, QJs or other hands raise you. You want them out.

[/ QUOTE ]

QJ is exactly what i want to be playing against. even AT i have 2 live cards plus flush and straight draw. the whole point is that hands that dominate KJ will play against you and probably 3-bet. Hands that you want to play against like QJ, JT, or KT are probably going to fold. raising directly cuts into your profits.

look at the fundamental theorum of poker. you want your opponents to make mistakes. if you call and someone with QJ calls, they are making a mistake. if you raise, they probably will fold and they are making the correct play. if you raise and someone with KQ, AK, AA, KK, QQ or JJ calls or reraises you then guess what, you are making the mistake.

KJs wants to play against multiple players and hit a flush or straight. Raising does not help this hand play to its strength. Raising will win you a small pot or lose you a larger pot.

when i play against players that raise KJs UTG i love it. it helps me play mistake free poker because I fold my dominated hands and 3-bet my dominating hands.

I personally don't like helping my opponents play mistake-free poker against me.

the only time its good to raise KJs UTG is if many people will call 2 bets cold as likely as they will 1 bet. then the whole point of raising is because you increas your value tremendously in a multi-way pot when your hand hits.

Re: 5/10 TP
 

This is full table...I prob fold KJs in first 3 positions. As far as raising it UTG I dont think its too bad if table is reasonably tight and you dont spew postflop.

The way the hand played out I fold to 3 bet on turn...

Re: 5/10 TP
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you raise KJs UTG you're only going to end up playing against hands that have you completely dominated and these hands will 3-bet you.

[/ QUOTE ]

If that's true, you have horrible game selection skills.

Raising KJs UTG is standard for me, and I get called by worse hands very frequently.

[/ QUOTE ]

I raise KJs here as well, especially when the game is running real tight-passive. But of course I sometimes seem to spew just for the hell of it. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: 5/10 TP
 

game type fellas. sometimes you can profitably raise KJs UTG and others its a limp and others still it is a fold. as played i would fold to the turn 3 bet.

Re: 5/10 TP
 

what type of game would you fold KJs UTG?

Re: 5/10 TP
 

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what type of game would you fold KJs UTG?

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it wouldn't be a typical small stakes game. but you must realize hand values change according to the hand selection of your opponents. and you also need to understand a hand may be a play sometimes and a fold others. also it may be a limp some % of the time and a raise some other %. poker is not a game of absolute rules. you must adapt and change as variables of the game dicate.

Re: 5/10 TP
 

i understand all of this very well. i'm just having trouble envisioning a real game where KJs is a correct fold UTG.

a super tight game where everyone plays only the top 10% of hands?

Re: 5/10 TP
 

i don't mean it is "always" a fold. there are some games where it is sometimes a fold. that is what i mean.

Re: 5/10 TP
 

[ QUOTE ]
i understand all of this very well. i'm just having trouble envisioning a real game where KJs is a correct fold UTG.

a super tight game where everyone plays only the top 10% of hands?

[/ QUOTE ]


The only LIMIT game condition I can think of that I would consider folding KJs UTG is when the majority of the hands are going to 3 or more bets pre flop...But even in this type game I would be more likely to raise then fold as the freguent raising would indicate a loose maniacal game in which KJs would perform very well and be paid off handsomely when you do hit the flop hard...

Re: 5/10 TP
 

My most common play with KJs UTG is limping, followed closely by raising, followed by folding. Part of the problem with limping, obviously, is that SB and BB get to play crap like K7, K5, K3, 75, 73, and 64. In this hand I fold to the 3-bet on the turn.

Re: 5/10 TP
 

1. Anyone folding KJs UTG is making a large error. I raise, but calling is only very slightly worse and it's not that big a deal.

2. If you are raising this turn, it should be with the intent of folding to a three-bet. Spewing four bets to get to a showdown with little odds to improve and TP3K is not going to be good. If you are not comfortable folding to a three-bet, why not call down? You need to realize that if he's three-betting the turn he's got you beat basically all the time unless he's a maniac. If he's so laggy you can't handle folding to a three-bet, call down.

Re: 5/10 TP
 

hey deranged,

IMO most preflop decisions cost just a bit of expectation either way and i don't see how a "large" error can occur by folding marginal hands OOP in a tough, tight-aggressive game. that said, i don't fold KJs in most any game i play b/c of game selection and the general softness of the limit i play. it is sometimes a raise and sometimes a limp. i was the one that originally mentioned folding as an option in particularly tough games and people found it to be unfathomable to consider. while it was a fairly insignificant detail in my post it got alot more attention than it probably warranted. i think the focus on this hand needs to be the turn play and given the course of action chosen the fact that when 3 bet we can't go to showdown. 4 big bets on the late streets with TPMK is too much in this situation.

Re: 5/10 TP
 

I bet he showed you 8-9 Spades? Though 4-6 Spades would have explained the raises on the turn.

KE