When do I raise my QQ on a ultra-loose table?
 

I didn't have any reads on specific players, but I knew the table was very loose.

Paradise Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, ($0.50)UTG+2 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (5 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, CO checks.

Turn: (2.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, CO folds, SB calls.

River: (6.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB

If I raise pre-flop, it's harder to push someone off a draw on the flop. If I bet out on the flop, there's so many people in the hand, that anyone who calls, chasing a draw, has correct odds to do so. Betting / raising on the the turn gives me the best chance to offer incorrect odds to anyone chasing, but meanwhile I've had to give better odds pre-flop and on the flop.

From a pot equity stand point, I should just raise this pre-flop and bet out on the flop. That seems like the best course of action, IMHO, but at the same time, QQ is not an ideal multi-way hand...but do I really have any other option?

Re: When do I raise my QQ on a ultra-loose table?
 

Raise PF. See dev's posts why. A flop bet is debatable, but on this board i bet. Betbetbetbetbetbet.

But i'm donk, so you should confirm this [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

edit: qq isn't as good in a multiway pot as it is hu, but you are still in front, so it's a bet. If you have aa and everybody calls you will loose more compared to hu, but if you win you win big.

Re: When do I raise my QQ on a ultra-loose table?
 

The horror.

Re: When do I raise my QQ on a ultra-loose table?
 

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If I raise pre-flop, it's harder to push someone off a draw on the flop.

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You can somehow predict what's gonna come on the flop? Raise pf for value.

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If I bet out on the flop, there's so many people in the hand, that anyone who calls, chasing a draw, has correct odds to do so.

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Anyone with a flush draw or OESD is calling regardless. Anyone who's spiked a pair is sticking around as well, but so what, you've got an overpair. Now say that CO has a gusthot. If you bet and UTG+1 and UTG+2 call, CO's getting 8:1, which still isn't enough to call. (EDIT: OK, it might be enough, but it's marginal). You've probably got the best hand, get your chips in while you can.

Re: When do I raise my QQ on a ultra-loose table?
 

Newbie grunch:

Raise pre-flop. Then the pot would be bigger and you might not even have SB to worry about. The way you played it, everyone and their rags got to see 3 cards cheap and then another card for free. By that point SB probably made his set of 6s for 1/2 a bet whilst your strong QQ lost equity and strength.

If you're not going to raise QQ then what are you going to raise?

Re: When do I raise my QQ on a ultra-loose table?
 

[ QUOTE ]
From a pot equity stand point, I should just raise this pre-flop and bet out on the flop. That seems like the best course of action, IMHO, but at the same time, QQ is not an ideal multi-way hand...but do I really have any other option?

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You just answered your own question.

You simply give up too much by not raising this hand preflop with 4 opponents.

Its the same on the flop, where you also had backdoor flush and straight draws to go with your overpair.

Occassionally it may be correct to wait for the turn to raise with overcards. But that would be when the pot is so huge (like 20sb) that it really would be impossible to protect your hand with a raise on the flop.

Also to raise on the turn, you need to know that someone else will bet. Thats more likely to happen when you raised preflop and someone else reraised.

This time, you should have raised preflop and then bet out the whole way throughout the hand.

Re: When do I raise my QQ on a ultra-loose table?
 

grunch

At least show some aggression FFS.

Re: When do I raise my QQ on a ultra-loose table?
 

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If you're not going to raise QQ then what are you going to raise?

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Yes, QQ is a raising hand. But as Jennifer Harman writes in SS2, sometimes, in the blinds, you might not want to raise after a lot of limpers because you're not going to drive anyone out and then on the flop, when you do try to drive someone out with your bet, they're getting better odds.

In retrospect, yes, I would at least bet out on the flop . But chasers will still be getting the odds to call -- oh well. Nothing I can do about that, and it's better than giving infinite odds. As for raising pre-flop...well, yes, from a pot equity standpoint, it's right. On the other hand, I've now given more people reason to chase on the flop...but again, oh well -- sometimes, there's nothing you can do to give incorrect odds post flop.

Re: When do I raise my QQ on a ultra-loose table?
 

Given the limit, you are raising for value, not to drive people out. QQ will win UI from any position, A LOT, even if an over comes.

Re: When do I raise my QQ on a ultra-loose table?
 

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[ QUOTE ]
If you're not going to raise QQ then what are you going to raise?

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Yes, QQ is a raising hand. But as Jennifer Harman writes in SS2, sometimes, in the blinds, you might not want to raise after a lot of limpers because you're not going to drive anyone out and then on the flop, when you do try to drive someone out with your bet, they're getting better odds.

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I've read Harman's section a few times and feel that she's assuming a higher standard of players than you'll find at micro-limits. In her kind of games, I think people limp with decent speculative hands, not crap like Kxo. You've said that these guys are very loose so they could have anything under the sun. QQ has a big equity edge against these type of players; raise it up.

Re: When do I raise my QQ on a ultra-loose table?
 

QQ is the third best starting hand. It does play well multiway, so raise it up. You aren't doing it to thin the field, you are raising because you have a huge equity advantage. Raise for value.

Bet the flop. People with anything will call regardless, you can't drive them out. Raise for value and to not give a free card. You almost certainly have the best hand, and you have backdoor straight and flushdraws. Bet for value.

You have to play a premium hand like QQ aggressivly. You'll probably win less often if you raise preflop, since a lot of people will call more often in a big pot than in a small. But the pot will be so much bigger it'll easily offset the times you lose because you bloated the pot.

Re: When do I raise my QQ on a ultra-loose table?
 

Grunch...

Good lord

Re: When do I raise my QQ on a ultra-loose table?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If I raise pre-flop, it's harder to push someone off a draw on the flop.

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See this post that I made recently.

Re: When do I raise my QQ on a ultra-loose table?
 

-First Grunch Ever-

Raise and try and cap it pre-flop. Bet the flop, I would try and cap this, then probably check/call to the river. The 6 on the turn makes me nervous. Raising might help me identify a set, but if the table is loose loose, I'm not convinced that someone isn't just trying to push me off by raising the scare card. Just the same, I'm having a hard time putting the villain on something other than 6 (except for J or 10 since we would have seen a raise on the flop).

Now... off to read the rest of the thread.

Re: When do I raise my QQ on a ultra-loose table?
 

This is what happens when "experience" triumphs over logic. QQ is a great starting hand, you must make everyone pay to stick around. If you don't push these equity edges you are really hurting your long term winrate.

Now that is not to say you will win everytime, in fact you will lose quite a lot of pots in these multiway suckfests BUT you will win more bets than you lose.

This is a classic example of negative reinforcement: you read the books, start aggressively and suffer a couple of bad beats. Next time you decide you will put fewer bets in because you "know" you will get sucked out. Of course now you get more callers, bottom pair catching trips, smaller PP hitting a set, runner-runner flush etc. In the end you start praying not to get dealt AA, KK or QQ and look for tighter tables where they respect your raises....

Re: When do I raise my QQ on a ultra-loose table?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You have to play a premium hand like QQ aggressivly. You'll probably win less often if you raise preflop, since a lot of people will call more often in a big pot than in a small. But the pot will be so much bigger it'll easily offset the times you lose because you bloated the pot.

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Seems like an excellent point!

Re: When do I raise my QQ on a ultra-loose table?
 

#1. Call down from the turn the way it played out

#2. Raise Preflop, Raise the flop, and I bet you $50 he's not going to come out betting the turn, so bet the turn, and bet the river.

You just gave up a shitload of money.

Re: When do I raise my QQ on a ultra-loose table?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You just gave up a shitload of money.

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Well, in this case, I didn't since the SB had a 6 and would almost certainly have stayed in, but I know what you mean...long term, yes.

Re: When do I raise my QQ on a ultra-loose table?
 

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If I raise pre-flop, it's harder to push someone off a draw on the flop.

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See this post that I made recently.

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Thanks!!

Re: When do I raise my QQ on a ultra-loose table?
 

Wow, I haven't read the other posts, but I'm sure they aren't supportive of your views and go something like this:

You have to raise this preflop. Your equity edge is HUGE and you have 4 (Edit: guess only four opponents - weird converter) players of dead money there. QQ loses value in multiway pots yes, but it's edge is still giant. I'd estimate your equity at about 35% (pokerstove) or more and you only need 20% to raise. In a loose passive game you aren't going to get people to fold their draws very often, and regardless, you shouldn't be worrying about that preflop (at least I don't) - this whole not building a pot argument is probably reserved for marginal hands if that, but I rarely see it needing to be applied at this level. Worry about protecting your hand if need be once you see the flop.

Furthermore, you say you didn't raise preflop so that you can push someone off a draw on the flop, but then you check it through. This is a tiny pot now because of your first mistake, but now you can push them off weak draws by betting (or at least make them make a mistake) and you don't.

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Betting / raising on the the turn gives me the best chance to offer incorrect odds to anyone chasing, but meanwhile I've had to give better odds pre-flop and on the flop.

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Better odds? You gave infinite odds. About the only time you have to worry about protecting a monster hand like this would be if you raised this preflop, then someone limp reraised you, you capped, everybody called, and then you have to act first on a coordinated flop. Then you have a compelling reason to wait for the turn since the pot will be huge. You'll still be extremely happy though that a big pot was built and you're holding a premium hand.

To summarize:
- QQ IS ideal in a multiway pot. Suited connectors go up in value and big pocket pairs go down in value in multiway pots, but big pocket pairs are still the best holding. If I were a billionare and I lost a few % of my net worth on a bad day of stock trading what would I be: still filthy rich (bet metaphor I could come up with).

- Don't give up huge equity edges, ever. And if you can't protect your hand in any way, so be it. Just bet. So you'll end up losing a big pot a little more often. Who cares? I'd risk losing a big multiway pot a little more often rather than playing it safe and winning a few more tiny pots.

- About the only time you are looking to forgo a raise is if your equity edge is small, the pot is huge, and the flop is scary for you.

- People are going to chase their draws, and you win money when they do and you have an equity edge. If you can find a a way to make thinking players fold their draws or let passive players call with incorrect odds in a big pot, then great, but if not it's not the end of the world if you're going to win more than your fair share in the end anyway.

Re: When do I raise my QQ on a ultra-loose table?
 

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You just gave up a shitload of money.

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Well, in this case, I didn't since the SB had a 6 and would almost certainly have stayed in, but I know what you mean...long term, yes.

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Had you raised PF and bet out the flop you cannot be certain that SB would not have folded on the flop with bottom pair. Even bad players can get that right most of the time. But, by being passive with your hand you let the SB draw to trips.

With all due respect to SS2 and Jennifer Harman, try reading Small Stakes Hold'em.

Re: When do I raise my QQ on a ultra-loose table?
 

This is an easy raise pf. Bet the flop. You are not getting rid of the flush/straight draws, but maybe run some over cards out on the flop bet. You are right QQ is not a great hand multi-way, however waiting here for aq better spot is like checking a flopped low flush to see if a 4th of that suit shows up. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]