hand w/ raillery, bet turn?
 

I just got to the table and I am playing serious, and as far as I know so is raillery. Should I bet the turn?

PokerStars 0.02/0.04 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 caps</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP3 calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP3 checks, Hero?

Re: hand w/ raillery, bet turn?
 

:grunch:

I don't see how you can get away from betting here with TPTK, especially since the pot is a good size...

Re: hand w/ raillery, bet turn?
 

Agreed. Looks like a pretty obvious bet.

Re: hand w/ raillery, bet turn?
 

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Agreed. Looks like a pretty obvious bet.

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Re: hand w/ raillery, bet turn?
 

what hand do we want him to have besides AK or JJ, not sure he would call the fliop w/ JJ. so AK?

OK, i bet, he raised, ? fold/call

Re: hand w/ raillery, bet turn?
 

im raillery btw.

Re: hand w/ raillery, bet turn?
 

what does he have the case QQ? he would have put more in on that flop with AA,KK. Does he pull of a c/r here with AKs? I think we can bet.

Re: hand w/ raillery, bet turn?
 

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what does he have the case QQ? he would have put more in on that flop with AA,KK. Does he pull of a c/r here with AKs? I think we can bet.

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Think about what I think that car has and what he is going to do with that hand range if:

a) I 3-bet flop
b) I play the flop as is
c) I bet turn
d) I check/raise turn
e) I call down

OR

if his hand range after flop action sufficiently warrants:

f) fold.

Re: hand w/ raillery, bet turn?
 

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what does he have the case QQ? he would have put more in on that flop with AA,KK. Does he pull of a c/r here with AKs? I think we can bet.

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Think about what I think that car has and what he is going to do with that hand range if:

a) I 3-bet flop
b) I play the flop as is
c) I bet turn
d) I check/raise turn
e) I call down

OR

if his hand range after flop action sufficiently warrants:

f) fold.

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Ok I'll bite

I think u put him on standard preflop hands TT+, AQ+
A) Anything under a pair of Queens and he folds. Pair of Queens or better he caps.
B)Plays the same but he might fold with JJ or TT.
C)Pair of Queens or better he raises AK he folds
D) Massive confusion (especially for me). Pocket Queens he raises. The rest I think he is either forced to call down or fold although I dont think he will fold here.
E) He bets all the way unless he doesn't make a pair then he may call river.

Too tired to figure out whether this saves u money or makes you money. Plus I still suck at the math part of this.

Re: hand w/ raillery, bet turn?
 

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im raillery btw.



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yea I know, I thought you changed your 2+2 handle to Raillery.

Re: hand w/ raillery, bet turn?
 

grunch = yes

Re: hand w/ raillery, bet turn?
 

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Think about what I think that car has and what he is going to do with that hand range if:

a) I 3-bet flop
b) I play the flop as is
c) I bet turn
d) I check/raise turn
e) I call down

OR

if his hand range after flop action sufficiently warrants:

f) fold.


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I think you put me on AJ+ 99+ with the pf action.

If you put me on [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]'s then you should 3bet the flop with an over pair. If you put me on JJ- or AK then you should probably call and let me bet the turn. If you put me on AQ, not sure that if you should 3bet the flop, or play it like you did. I think 3betting the flop may have been best.

When you checked the turn, I thought you put me on AQ exactly, maybe I was over thinking it, but I just thought it smelled like a check/raise. I think I agree with others that a bet was probably best, but I don't think a free card hurts me here, I think he is 3betting the flop with [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]'s so I didn't put him on a flush draw. I guess I get value out of AK and JJ. I think I should have folded to the turn check/raise though.

Would you make that turn check/raise with AK [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]? Wouldn't you have 3bet the flop with that? I put you on exactly AA or KK. I even typed in the chat KK, but called any way. Maybe I was over thinking it, but I felt like I played it wrong.

Re: hand w/ raillery, bet turn?
 

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Think about what I think that car has and what he is going to do with that hand range if:

a) I 3-bet flop
b) I play the flop as is
c) I bet turn
d) I check/raise turn
e) I call down

OR

if his hand range after flop action sufficiently warrants:

f) fold.

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Well this question would be easier to answer if we knew what your hand was.

But my guess is that you put Car on top pair or better, but that you thought that your hand was better.

Consequently you didnt want Car to fold to a flop 3-bet, so you waited until the turn to raise, and hoped that Car would call down with few outs to improve to a better hand.

So my guess is that you had AA. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: hand w/ raillery, bet turn?
 

I'd bet the turn

Re: hand w/ raillery, bet turn?
 

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Agreed. Looks like a pretty obvious bet.

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Whats our line if he check-raises the turn?, I agree on betting turn, just would be lost if he check-raises us [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: hand w/ raillery, bet turn?
 

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I'd bet the turn

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if check/raised, would you call down? fold? raise?

Re: hand w/ raillery, bet turn?
 

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I'd bet the turn

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if check/raised, would you call down? fold? raise?

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My initial response is, it's a fold.

I can see now this is like WA/WB. If his hand range pre-flop is TT+ and AK, then

AA, 3, behind, 2 outs
KK, 6, behind, 5 outs
QQ, 1, behind, 0 outs
JJ, 3, behind, 0 outs
TT, 6 ahead, he has 2 outs
AK, 12, ahead, he has 3 outs

ahead of 18, behind 13. he's not b/c'ing this flop with TT, and he doesn't do this with AK a lot? He is either c/f'ing this turn (no value in betting) or c/r'ing (we lose 2 bets calling down a lot and winning rarely, or lose one bet and the pot, folding). I think I change my mind. The only thing that might shift this is if he caps with AJs and AQo, or KQs? I don't recall Shadow being as lagardly as me in this game.

Also now I think on the flop I just call and re-eval on the turn depending on the board, and whether he bets or checks.

Re: hand w/ raillery, bet turn?
 

I don't raise the flop.

Re: hand w/ raillery, bet turn?
 

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My initial response is, it's a fold.

I can see now this is like WA/WB. If his hand range pre-flop is TT+ and AK, then

AA, 3, behind, 2 outs
KK, 6, behind, 5 outs
QQ, 1, behind, 0 outs
JJ, 3, behind, 0 outs
TT, 6 ahead, he has 2 outs
AK, 12, ahead, he has 3 outs

ahead of 18, behind 13. he's not b/c'ing this flop with TT, and he doesn't do this with AK a lot? He is either c/f'ing this turn (no value in betting) or c/r'ing (we lose 2 bets calling down a lot and winning rarely, or lose one bet and the pot, folding). I think I change my mind. The only thing that might shift this is if he caps with AJs and AQo, or KQs? I don't recall Shadow being as lagardly as me in this game.

Also now I think on the flop I just call and re-eval on the turn depending on the board, and whether he bets or checks.


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this was my exact thinking on the hand. You basically said everything I was trying to say, only more clearly. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I didn't think AK b/c I don't see him playing it that way, AK [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] maybe, but I think he 3bets the flop with it, and he is not check/raising the turn with it.

The only part I am not sure about is this:

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Also now I think on the flop I just call and re-eval on the turn depending on the board, and whether he bets or checks.

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what is your reasoning, and what hands do you think he would cap pf and lead this flop with that would make us not want to raise.

Re: hand w/ raillery, bet turn?
 

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Also now I think on the flop I just call and re-eval on the turn depending on the board, and whether he bets or checks.

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what is your reasoning, and what hands do you think he would cap pf and lead this flop with that would make us not want to raise.

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Well, since we are WA/WB. We're getting punished by him when he's ahead (either 3-bet flop or c/r turn), but earning a bet when he does this with AK. We can also decide if he's serious about his hand on the turn. I kind of wonder how this jives with the FTOP?


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Here is general statement about yesterday's game: it was a bit of a whirlwind for me, and I do wonder about how the sweaters took it? I have to admit, I felt so overwhelmed that it was extremely rewarding to get back to my regular game. I was playing at a table last night avg vpip 45, and was back into my comfort zone.

Re: hand w/ raillery, bet turn?
 

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Well, since we are WA/WB. We're getting punished by him when he's ahead (either 3-bet flop or c/r turn), but earning a bet when he does this with AK. We can also decide if he's serious about his hand on the turn. I kind of wonder how this jives with the FTOP?


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I was thinking on the flop he could still hold TT, JJ, AK, and AQs maybe AJs, so I felt those hands were reason enough to raise with. When he called the flop and checked the turn I was sure he either had TT, AK, or had me crushed. JJ just got there, I think AJs would have 3bet the flop. So I put him on AA, KK, QQ, or JJ, maybe another AQ. so I was way behind. I still think a bet maybe best on the turn, but I probably have to fold to the check/raise.

Re: hand w/ raillery, bet turn?
 

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I was thinking on the flop he could still hold TT, JJ, AK, and AQs maybe AJs, so I felt those hands were reason enough to raise with.

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Why do you want to raise the flop against these hands?

Re: hand w/ raillery, bet turn?
 

Why is AJs 3-betting that flop? Also, I can only see b/c with TT,JJ if he plans on trying to fold you on a turn c/r UI.

Re: hand w/ raillery, bet turn?
 

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Why do you want to raise the flop against these hands?


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your right, I guess it is more a wa/wb.

edit: I think it is a wa/wb line sort of, I think I still had enough value in betting the turn, but the check raise sure made it seem I was behind. Maybe the way I played it wasn't too bad. I think he could still hold some hands on the turn that made a bet correct. I think this is just a case of me over thinking this hand.

Re: hand w/ raillery, bet turn?
 

I check turn and call rallery's river bet. The only hand you're beating here is AK/TT/99. And you're tying w/ AQ. The problem with betting here is you hate getting c/r since it gives you a difficult decision. Honestly, I don't like raising the flop and I'd probably call down in a wa/wb situation.