Help -- I have NEVER seen this happen before.
 

Um, wow. This happened at Seneca Niagara at a 1-2 NL game. There are some very knowledgeable rules people in this forum, and I'm looking for guidance.

I had $150 in front of me; the oldish lady in the hand had about the same.

I pick up A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] on the button. The lady limps, another player limps, the CO limps, and I raise to $14. Lady calls, both other limpers call.

Flop is J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Lady checks, other limper checks, CO bets $20, I raise to $70, Lady pushes all in for ~$150, one fold, CO folds, I call.

Lady turns over Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

The turn is 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and the river is 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], lady says, "Nice hand." "Thanks," I reply, getting ready to rake a pot of about $350.

"Wait a second," the dealer says. "I think I made a mistake. I think I burned one too many before the turn."

Before I can even respond, he turns the turn and river cards face down and fishes two cards out of the muck.

"These are the correct turn and river," he says. And one of the cards he turns over is the Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

Immediately, the old lady reaches for the pile of chips. "Wait a second, what's going on?" I ask heatedly. "You dealt the turn and river!"

"I know," the dealer responds. "But for some reason I didn't think anyone was betting the flop, so I got ready to deal the turn and I burned one. Then people started betting, and then I burned an extra card when we went to the turn."

The table looks on in amazement, and the player next to me tells me I should call the floor.

"I want to call the floor," I tell the dealer. "Even if you did burn one too many, you finished dealing the hand and declared a winner. And you didn't even explain how you picked out the two cards you ended replacing the turn and river with!"

"We don't need the floor," the dealer responds. "I made a mistake and I fixed it."

"I want to talk to the floor," I say.

"Then go get the floor," the dealer responds.

I walk to the end of the room to talk to the floor, but as I'm talking to the floor, she informs me that the dealer is already dealing the next hand, and there will be nothing she can do to change what happened. I am stunned.

"The dealer should not have made his own decision in that spot, even if he did make a mistake," the floor person tells me.

I ask her what her ruling would have been, and she essentially tells me she doesn't know the rule and would have had to be there before the next hand is dealt. She tells me I'm out of luck.

Can anyone help me on this? My first mistake was leaving the table to grab the floor instead of calling loudly enough to get the floor. I have NEVER seen a dealer deal out all five cards, declare a winner, then go back and fish two cards out of the muck to replace the turn and river.

Thanks for any help on this matter.

Re: Help -- I have NEVER seen this happen before.
 

Wow. That. Sucks.

I cant believe that they made such a horrible decision.. not sure if I want to play there anymore..

Re: Help -- I have NEVER seen this happen before.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Wow. That. Sucks.

I cant believe that they made such a horrible decision.. not sure if I want to play there anymore..

[/ QUOTE ]

really the horrible decision was from the OP, not holding on to his cards and yelling for the floor. That sucks, the fishing throw the muck is extremely questionable.

Re: Help -- I have NEVER seen this happen before.
 

How are you not in jail right now? Or are you out on bail?

Re: Help -- I have NEVER seen this happen before.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wow. That. Sucks.

I cant believe that they made such a horrible decision.. not sure if I want to play there anymore..

[/ QUOTE ]

really the horrible decision was from the OP, not holding on to his cards and yelling for the floor.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely true. I have never had to call for the floor before, and this was a nice experience for me. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Help -- I have NEVER seen this happen before.
 

I'd hope the camera caught this action-- I'd at least want that dealer fired. I'd also get the floor to come over and talk to the people in the hand to corroborate my take, of course, to at least get that dealer fired.

Assuming you're not just making this up for attention. But that's for other people to debate-- I do believe humans can be this stupid.

As an aside, what are the legal consequences of flipping a poker table while in play.

Re: Help -- I have NEVER seen this happen before.
 

I have no problem with the board being corrected here since there was no possible action at the time the error was made.

I do have a problem with how thsi occurred. The dealer as soon as he realized his error should have stopped everything and calle dthe floor. the dealer should not have turned over any cards (The decison here is much easier to make and accept if the decision maker doesn't know that the outcome of the hand will definately be affected by the decision.

Re: Help -- I have NEVER seen this happen before.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming you're not just making this up for attention.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, no. I'm not saying here at the dealer was dishonest; it's entirely possible he burned one too many and only realized it after dealing out the turn and river. I'm just not sure if the hand should stand because he dealt all five and declared a winner; I'm also extremely frustrated because I did not receive an explanation for how he selected the cards to replace the turn and river.

I don't think other players at the table felt the dealer was trying to screw me; in fact, I would guess they think he was trying to fix a mistake.

Re: Help -- I have NEVER seen this happen before.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have no problem with the board being corrected here since there was no possible action at the time the error was made.

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I don't either, but is there a rule that relates to this situation? I'd be surprised if it's totally discretionary.

Re: Help -- I have NEVER seen this happen before.
 

I'm not even going to lie, I've forgotten to burn, and I've overburned too(somehow?)
You know what I do?

The logical thing. ...Nothing.

Your floor sucks and I would have at least gotten a food comp, I'm pretty sure I would have kicked that dealer in the face. Maybe Dicelump knows who it is.

Re: Help -- I have NEVER seen this happen before.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not even going to lie, I've forgotten to burn, and I've overburned too(somehow?)
You know what I do?

The logical thing. ...Nothing.

Your floor sucks and I would have at least gotten a food comp, I'm pretty sure I would have kicked that dealer in the face. Maybe Dicelump knows who it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've almost always gotten along with dealers very well; I think that, by and large, they do a fine job and make the play more enjoyable. My goal is not to rip dealers or make them look bad; I just feel that this was handled very poorly. By me as well as everyone else involved.

Re: Help -- I have NEVER seen this happen before.
 

fishes two cards out of the muck.

Burn cards are supposed to be kept separate from the muck, that way you can count them.

I would have screamed bloody murder and the pot would not have gone anywhere until the floor made a decision (but from your description, I'm not sure the floor would be of much help).

Re: Help -- I have NEVER seen this happen before.
 

This really surprises me. I've never had a bad experience with dealers or the floor at Seneca. Any idea which dealer it was?

Re: Help -- I have NEVER seen this happen before.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have no problem with the board being corrected here since there was no possible action at the time the error was made.

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I don't either, but is there a rule that relates to this situation? I'd be surprised if it's totally discretionary.

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Well since your focus seems to be on whether the dealers putting out a tunr and river and declaring a winner terminates the opportunity to correct a mistake, the general rule is that a decision or ruling (in this case correcting the mistake of the overburn) may be made regarding a hand up until the next deal starts.

As such if the floor had been called over by the dealer when he realized his error, the floor could have replaced the turn and river with the "proper" cards even though the dealer had already declared you the "winner."

Re: Help -- I have NEVER seen this happen before.
 

That will teach you to play when the dealer's mother is in the pot. Seriously though, this is horrific. It seems highly suspicious to me as well ... almost as if he'd set the queen up to be dealt and then screwed up and burned it. There is a very non-trivial chance that this game is crooked.

Re: Help -- I have NEVER seen this happen before.
 

Oh man, how wrong can the staff make this?

1) he's burning into the muck?
2) he's pulling cards out of the muck?
3) players are reaching for pots?
4) he makes his own decisions?
5) he refuses your request to call the floor?
6) the floor tells you "tough luck" without so much as an offer for a comp?

That dealer would be out the door if I was his boss. He wouldn't even finish his down. Not because he made a mistake but because he "fixed" it himself and refused a customers request to speak to the manager about it.

Hell, the mistake doesn't even matter, the're only burn cards. It's still random whether he makes this mistake or not.

I don't know where Seneca is, but if it's not the only card room in town I'd write a letter to management describing what happened and find a room where they have at least half of a clue. If it is the only game in town at least you know to yell, "FLOOOOOOR!" while you hang onto your cards now.

In the case of this dealer, I wouldn't tip him again... at least until you've made up the pot that this dealer stole from you. What a chode.

Re: Help -- I have NEVER seen this happen before.
 

[ QUOTE ]
he's pulling cards out of the muck?

[/ QUOTE ]

It all happened so fast, and if he had kept the burn cards separated from the muck, it was difficult for to distinguish. There was a pile of cards there, and it did not appear to be separated, though in the dealer's defense, he might very well have known which cards were which.

Re: Help -- I have NEVER seen this happen before.
 

Is there an official "rulebook" that would explain what is supposed to happen in these situations ?

Re: Help -- I have NEVER seen this happen before.
 

I'm not familiar with this casino. Is it overseen by a Gaming Commission?

Here is what you should have done:

1. DO NOT LET GO OF YOUR ACES UNTIL YOU GET THE MONEY. Dealer won't call the floor to rule on the hand? Well then, he's going to need to call somebody to get these two cards out of my hands.

2. Do not let that pot get pushed. Lay on the table if you need to. Make it clear to all involved that this game is at a halt until a floorman gets there. I'm not joking.

3. If the burn cards really are in the muck (you sound new, and may not realize that not all facedown cards are mucked), accept nothing less than the pot.

4. If all else fails, ask the floor to call the Gaming Commission. Inform the floor that Gaming will want to see the videotape of this hand.

5. If there's no Commission to call (which is usually the case in an Indian casino), then why on earth are you playing there? You're SOL.

Re: Help -- I have NEVER seen this happen before.
 

there's "Robert's rules of poker" (Bob Caffione). Each card room keeps thier own modified version of these AFAIK. In any case, the dealer isn't supposed to fix a mistake, that's the floor's job. Dealers make mistakes, floor managers fix them.

Re: Help -- I have NEVER seen this happen before.
 

[ QUOTE ]
3. If the burn cards really are in the muck (you sound new, and may not realize that not all facedown cards are mucked), accept nothing less than the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess the problem was that players who had mucked had tossed their cards into what appeared to be the same pile that the dealer was pulling the "new" turn and river from. However, I can give the dealer credit for knowing which was which, but I can not give him any credit for properly explaining which cards were burn cards, and why he chose the cards he did to replace the turn and river.

At the very least, a full explanation before he replaced the turn and river would have helped.

Re: Help -- I have NEVER seen this happen before.
 

holy hell. I'm an extremely mellow/passive guy and I'm pretty sure I would ahve been 86ed after this hand.

Here's a tip for everyone. If you have a dealer disagree with you and it's something that matters (like the awarding of a pot) don't engage them further just yell for the floor. Yell, don't stand up and look around, don't walk over to the floor, yell. "FLOOR!" is all you need to do, the dealer will stop the action and the floor will come. If they ruled against me here then I would probably have been 86ed thouhg.

Re: Help -- I have NEVER seen this happen before.
 

Obviously, the dealer handled this horribly. My question is if somebody points out the dealer did burn one too many cards and the floor is called, what should the decision be? The players we're all-in, so the dealer putting out the incorrect turn and river did not affect action.

Re: Help -- I have NEVER seen this happen before.
 

[ QUOTE ]
My question is if somebody points out the dealer did burn one too many cards and the floor is called, what should the decision be? The players we're all-in, so the dealer putting out the incorrect turn and river did not affect action.

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If someone points it out as it happening the "correct" card should be dealt. If the cards are dealt and then it is noticed it is too late to correct it for 2 reasons. (1) There existance of an extra burn card does not tell us when the extra burn was made, only that it was made (might have burned twice before the flop, noway to know). (2)Allowing a playing to point out the wrong card is dealt after the card is dealt allows that player too much leverage; if it was a card they liked they could overlook the error, but point it out if they wanted a different card.

Re: Help -- I have NEVER seen this happen before.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Allowing a playing to point out the wrong card is dealt after the card is dealt allows that player too much leverage; if it was a card they liked they could overlook the error, but point it out if they wanted a different card.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this an actual rule or are you making an assumption. It makes sense to me. The purpose of the burn cards is to protect the integrity of the game, and burning an extra card does not change the random nature of the cards on board. Of course, I'm obviously biased here.

In this case, it was only the dealer who decided to go back and change something; no one asked him to do so. After he dealt the turn and river, he made the decision on his own.

Re: Help -- I have NEVER seen this happen before.
 

[ QUOTE ]
"I want to call the floor," I tell the dealer. "Even if you did burn one too many, you finished dealing the hand and declared a winner. And you didn't even explain how you picked out the two cards you ended replacing the turn and river with!"

"We don't need the floor," the dealer responds. "I made a mistake and I fixed it."

"I want to talk to the floor," I say.

"Then go get the floor," the dealer responds.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is the only part of the story that really and truly amazes me.

Re: Help -- I have NEVER seen this happen before.
 

Only thing to do is notify the dealers next of kin

Re: Help -- I have NEVER seen this happen before.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Only thing to do is capture and torture the dealer's next of kin.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Help -- I have NEVER seen this happen before.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wow. That. Sucks.

I cant believe that they made such a horrible decision.. not sure if I want to play there anymore..

[/ QUOTE ]

really the horrible decision was from the OP, not holding on to his cards and yelling for the floor.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely true. I have never had to call for the floor before, and this was a nice experience for me. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

In your defense, players really shouldn't have to call the floor - dealers should! And good ones won't hesitate to call them for even minor stuff, let alone something absurd like what happened to you.

I would have flipped the f*ck out if I were you...

Not sure if anyone answered your Q yet, but I don't think there is a rule for this. But, I always thought that once the community cards come out, they are out. I'm guessing most floor people would have at least given you your chips back, if not the whole pot.

Re: Help -- I have NEVER seen this happen before.
 

That's ridiculous conduct by the dealer.

First off, as another poster has pointed out, the burn cards are kept separate from the muck for a reason. If a dispute arises (such as this), they are identifiable and any necessary corrections can be made without resorting to guesswork. If the dealer didn't keep the burn separate from the muck, that's error #1.

Second, if an error like this occurs it's DEFINITELY a floor call, so that the integrity of both the dealer and the establishment will not be called into question. You want a supervisor to oversee any correction of the board to make sure there is no lingering issue after the hand is over.

Third, when a player asks for a floor decision here you call the floor. As a dealer, I can't imagine telling a player to leave the table and find the floor for himself when a $300+ pot is at stake. That's just plain nuts.

Fourth, when a dispute is ongoing over a pot, you DO NOT muck the cards and start dealing the next hand (effectively destroying the evidence that the floor would need in order to correctly make any further call).

I have no idea if this was just a very inexperienced dealer in a moment of panic ("oh god, don't let the floor know I screwed up!") or if this was a shadier thing, but the handling of this as you described was just plain awful.

At minimum, I'd have made a formal complaint to the management about this, and I'd have asked them to review the surveillance tapes if possible.


q/q

Re: Help -- I have NEVER seen this happen before.
 

I would find out who the gaming commision is that regulates this casino and file a written complaint. Get the date, time name of the dealer and name of the floor person. If there is no gaming commision for this casino or they do nothing then I think you might want to find another place to do your gambling.

Re: Help -- I have NEVER seen this happen before.
 

For the cheap price of ~$350.00 you have learned a very valuable life lesson.

Don't let anybody tell you what to do or push you around when it's your money at stake until you know for sure that they are right and have the authority to make the decision.

By now you know that you weren't treated properly. It's not really that big a deal in the scheme of things if you've learned your lesson.

As to what I would've done:

I would not have let go of my cards and would've started yelling for the floor. There is no need to get hysterical but make sure that the floor makes the decision after everything is fully explained. I've seen players over-react and then get barred from a poker room where they've been making good money. You can't let that happen. I'd tell that dealer to his face, quietly, that he doesn't know what he's doing and that unless he acknowledges that to you you will complain about him to the top manager and he will never see a tip from you or those you can influence ever again.

Re: Help -- I have NEVER seen this happen before.
 

Print this thread and show it to Seneca management perhaps??

I'm really not sure what to do here but the dealer AND the floor wouldn't even listen to you when you had a complaint about a terrible mistake that THEY made.

you may be able to get that dealer reprimanded or fired and he probably deserves it imo.

Casino management might throw a couple hotel-room comps at you or something as an apology. That's what they should do at least imo.

This really is something that you probably shouldn't just 'let go'.

Re: Help -- I have NEVER seen this happen before.
 

I cannot agree more that the dealer was out of line with the 'go get the floor yourself' comment.

Maybe I'm spoiled that the room I play in most regularly is well-managed. I've witnessed a couple of dealer mistakes that influenced a hand, and in every case, the dealer IMMEDIATELY recognized the mistake, called the floor over, and had him him/her review exactly what had happened and make a ruling. In every case, they've made the right decision, despite the protests of players. Having been on both sides of these rulings, I know I feel very comfortable playing in that room. And, thanks to this thread, I have a much better idea of what I should do if a dealer decision comes down that needs a floor ruling, but doesn't immediately get one.

Re: Help -- I have NEVER seen this happen before.
 

LOL Don't tip the bums a nickel.

Re: Help -- I have NEVER seen this happen before.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I cannot agree more that the dealer was out of line with the 'go get the floor yourself' comment.

[/ QUOTE ]

I should clarify that he didn't say it in a huffy manner; he just indicated that it was my right to go get the floor.

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe I'm spoiled that the room I play in most regularly is well-managed. I've witnessed a couple of dealer mistakes that influenced a hand, and in every case, the dealer IMMEDIATELY recognized the mistake, called the floor over, and had him him/her review exactly what had happened and make a ruling.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aside from this incident, I've had nothing but positive experiences with Seneca dealers. My biggest concern remains that I have no confidence that the floor would have any clue what to do.

Re: Help -- I have NEVER seen this happen before.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Aside from this incident, I've had nothing but positive experiences with Seneca dealers. My biggest concern remains that I have no confidence that the floor would have any clue what to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

This should be a concern. I don't really know what to tell you to do other than not play there. It is not uncommon these days for the floor staffs to be unfamiliar with the rules and procedures for maintaining the integrity of a poker game.

Re: Help -- I have NEVER seen this happen before.
 

Who was the dealer?

I've had mostly good experiences with the dealers there, less a couple minor personality type issues. Technically they are generally sound.

Heck, I'm actually very curious who it was, and can only think of one or two I can see telling you to find the floor...curious if my personality assessments are spot on.

Re: Help -- I have NEVER seen this happen before.
 

As soon as he starts messing with the board and the muck you yell, "FLOOR!"

Re: Help -- I have NEVER seen this happen before.
 

I don't think my original post conveyed my opinion of the gravity of the mistakes in this hand.

No big deal about burning twice, everyone makes mistakes.

It's a big deal that the dealer took it upon himself to fix it.

It's a huge deal that the manager wan't called to resolve it.

It's also a large customer service problem that the floor just said "tough".