Wynn management: pathetically incompetent? or just plain jerks?
 

OK. It's been a while since I posted. Computer is blown up. Whatever, posting ain't my life. But I had to find a computer to post this one at all costs.

Until today, I was more on the "well, the wynn has problems, but it's basically OK" train of thought.

I guess I was wrong.

This morning I called wynn about 745 am to see what was going. 4-8 mixed games! Kick ass! I'm there. I get there about 8:30 and I'm in the game by 9:00. Game is GREAT, loose, fun, dropping tons of rake (max every hand without fail).

Everything is great till about 10:15 or 10:30. Then there's a floor guy with a bunch of racks and some pens and paperwork. He says we have to MOVE. I ask him WTF, move the game, are you crazy? You'' break it for sure! Yep, we have to move. I ask him if he'sm crazy, or if he just wants to break up the game. No answer, whatever, we're moving and he doesn't give a rat's ass what the consequences are.

Well, sure enough, his forcing the game to move has the following result: Everyone makes straight for the cage and the game breaks immediately.

Note: at this time of morning, there are about 7-8 games going in the whole room, and in the upper area (where this game is going) there are ZERO games going at this time.

So obviously their little "move" of the game has precisely the effect I did not want it to have: it totally breaks the game.

Note: there were four wynn employees in the game, and they ALL went STRAIGHT FOR THE CAGE.

So I bring this up with jesse, whom I am told is second in command to the director of poker operations.

Never have I found someone who cares less about what their players (i.e. customers) think about their room. I'd have to say the guy was just short of a hardcore jerk from the minute I approached him.

His response to my asking why he felt the need to insist the game got moved? "well we'll have to move it sooner or later. Move it for what? Well, he didn't want to explain THAT.

His response when I asked him about all his wynn employees heading straight for the cage with their chips when he BROKE the game? Nothing. Total Airball.

Absolutely pathetic. The game was happy. I was happy. The game was dropping plenty of rake. There were no other games waiting for that particular area. Nothing. The game was seven friggin' handed (eight max). Why he broke it is beyond me, but he did anyway. And I'm quite sure that he didn't give a flying rat's ass whether that game broke, whether it was for the best interest of the cardroom, whether the house lost money because of his decision, whether the customers were happy or unhappy, none of it. I assume that sometime later in the day he planned to have higher limit games up there, but of course he wouldn't say. Well I hope those players really give good **** jobs, Jesse, because you've done pissed off all your mixed game players bad enough not to just NOT come back to the wynn anytime soon, but to be sure and tell all their friends about their bad experience as well. Like me. Screw the wynn, I'm going to any other room next time I play, last time the wynn pissed me the hell off.

I asked an employee about it, they were stupefied as to why on earth jesse would break that game. I told them the story, their response...

Anonymous wynn employee: "well, that's dayshift"

I change sides. Wynn management is purely incompetent. Or maybe they're just jerks. Probably a mix of both, with a heavy dose of incompetence. Stop by and ask for jesse for details.

I'll make sure to be near a computer so I can see responses to this fiasco. BTW, if you want a good mixed game, SKIP THE WYNN.

al

Re: Wynn management: pathetically incompetent? or just plain jerks?
 

Al, you forgot the most important detail.

Did you kick anybody in the nuts?!?

Re: Wynn management: pathetically incompetent? or just plain jerks?
 

Hey Al... great to have you back. That is an asbolutely insane idea. I am sure it was messing up his dealer rotation or something... still stupid.

BTW, Al. Drop me a PM with your number, I am in vegas now and wanted to get your advice on some things.

- Richard

Re: Wynn management: pathetically incompetent? or just plain jerks?
 

My roommate was playing 15-30 when this happened. He told me to look for the post.

Sounds pretty silly of the floor. I hope the management isn't as bad as you say. My trip may not be as fun as I had hoped.

blake

Re: Wynn management: pathetically incompetent? or just plain jerks?
 

Al,

I'm a little bit surprised here. I really didn't think that you were that likely to get so down on Wynn Management over a single incident. While I agree that it was handled poorly, I would look for repeated incidents before I would label the entirety of the Wynn Poker Management as incompetant.

I suspect you also know why they wanted to move the game. Its Saturday and they expect a busy day, and you guys were up in there high limit section. they were hoping that they would be opening up some $5/$10 Nl games up there, and you can't expect those players to sit anywhere near the $4/$8 players, they might get some peanut butter on their caviar. This is Wynn, we can't mix classes here.

Lastly you make no sense when you say "you've done pissed off all your mixed game players bad enough not to just NOT come back to the wynn anytime soon, but to be sure and tell all their friends about their bad experience as well." The game was 7 handed when this happened and four of the players were Wynn employees. So actually he pissed off only three of his customers at most. And you might be the only one pissed off enough to not return.

Re: Wynn management: pathetically incompetent? or just plain jerks?
 

While I agree this is a stupid thing for Wynn to do I'm not sure I understand why so many players leave instead of just switching tables.
It certainly can't be that much of a hassle....but from Al's tone I gather that moving a table like that is almost a sure-fire way to get players to leave which I think is somewhat interesting.

Re: Wynn management: pathetically incompetent? or just plain jerks?
 

[ QUOTE ]
While I agree this is a stupid thing for Wynn to do I'm not sure I understand why so many players leave instead of just switching tables.
It certainly can't be that much of a hassle....but from Al's tone I gather that moving a table like that is almost a sure-fire way to get players to leave which I think is somewhat interesting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its all about Newton's First Law.

Re: Wynn management: pathetically incompetent? or just plain jerks?
 

Al - Al - Al Welcome Back

Seems an odd choice to move/break a game like that. Did they want to move the 4-8 riffraff off the upper deck? If so, a good question could be - why did they start the game there instead of another table.

Does a mixed game have that many fewer hands per hour that they would want the dealers for holdem instead? Mixed game would be max of 8 players, right? And Wynn has only 9 players at holdem?

I have only played the Wynn a few days last June. Thought it was great. Was hoping to play there again this July. Will be interested to see what others come up with for reasons or speculation.

Re: Wynn management: pathetically incompetent? or just plain jerks?
 

Al,

how horrible, what a terrible injustice..i cant believe they made you move tables!!
you should be pissed for life.

Re: Wynn management: pathetically incompetent? or just plain jerks?
 

[ QUOTE ]
While I agree this is a stupid thing for Wynn to do I'm not sure I understand why so many players leave instead of just switching tables.
It certainly can't be that much of a hassle....but from Al's tone I gather that moving a table like that is almost a sure-fire way to get players to leave which I think is somewhat interesting.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can get away with moving a new game, but moving an ongoing game is always a disaster. Usually at least half the pallyers leave when you move a game. On a related note I hate to combine games because if you have 2 six handed games and try to combine you end up with one 8 handed game.
A lot of times games continue because poker players don't want to rack up and leave, once htey are racked up and standing that is as good of a time as any to leave.

Re: Wynn management: pathetically incompetent? or just plain jerks?
 

So they needed to move your game for some reason and they didn't feel like they had to explain it to you.

K

Re: Wynn management: pathetically incompetent? or just plain jerks?
 

Mason has an article in one of his Poker Essays book which is almost identical to your story. I suggest you photocopy that essay, print out this thread in a couple days, and give both to Wynn management.

Re: Wynn management: pathetically incompetent? or just plain jerks?
 

Fairly typical of clueless poker room mid level management. Many "look good" but dont know squat. I'd happily give 6:5 on games breaking when they do this and would certainly make lots of money doing so!

Re: Wynn management: pathetically incompetent? or just plain jerks?
 

What would have been the reaction if the floor had been apologetic, ie "Sorry guys but I have to move you", and then offer "No Drop" for the next 20 min?

Re: Wynn management: pathetically incompetent? or just plain jerks?
 

[ QUOTE ]
While I agree this is a stupid thing for Wynn to do I'm not sure I understand why so many players leave instead of just switching tables.

[/ QUOTE ]

At any given table at any given time probably a quarter of the players are thinking "I really should be leaving." Another quarter are thinking "I'll bail in an hour or so." But if there's no catalyst to spark a change a lot of these players will keep right on playing for 2 more hours. But have something go wrong--change of tables, spill a milkshake across the field, have someone die at the table, whatever--and by the time it's sorted out you lose at least a third of the players.

I was there last night about 12:30am when they called the list for the 4/8 mix game on table 6. I looked around at the time thinking that was an odd place to put the game and it looked like every other table was in use. I came >< this close to joining it but I was in that "I really should be leaving soon" mindset so I stayed where I was another hour and then skeedaddled.

Re: Wynn management: pathetically incompetent? or just plain jerks?
 

I feel vindicated regarding my posistion on the subject of the floor at the Wynn Poker Room. I believe I was treated unfairly on my last visit and I have no intention of returning.

I am not the only one that believes the floor at the Wynn sucks.

Re: Wynn management: pathetically incompetent? or just plain jerks?
 

[ QUOTE ]

At any given table at any given time probably a quarter of the players are thinking "I really should be leaving." Another quarter are thinking "I'll bail in an hour or so."

[/ QUOTE ]


I suspect this is correct.
Good explanation of why these games always break at the littlest of triggers.

Re: Wynn management: pathetically incompetent? or just plain jerks?
 

I think posts like this are the reason poker players have a reputation for being bitchy and impossible to please.

Instead of getting pissed at management you should take your frustrations out on the nits who decided to cash out instead of enduring the traumatic experience of moving their asses 20 feet to a new table.

Re: Wynn management: pathetically incompetent? or just plain jerks?
 

You blew this one way out of proportion. For one, the game was gonna last at most two more orbits. I was leaving the game at the time the game was broken regardless of whether we were being asked to move and the old guy in the five seat was next up for the $15/30. Yeah you maybe could have gotten another half hour out of the game playing four or five handed, but that's about it.

As for the floor's attitude towards you, get over it. Yeah they might have been somewhat curt, but it's not like you were calm and rational. Could the situation have been handled more diplomatically? Undoubtedly. Is this worth some 5 paragraph denouncing the Wynn management as demon spawn? Hell no. Despite this minor mistake, the Wynn continues to be one of the best run rooms in the city.



PS Why didn't you respond when I asked if you had come down to the Wynn for a kick in the nuts?

Re: Wynn management: pathetically incompetent? or just plain jerks?
 

Al,

The first thing I did this morning at 10A was check the list to see if this game was going (I needed to donate some money back); I can't believe those bastards broke it!

My experience with the Wynn over the last several days, other than this, was amazing.

-Craig

Re: Wynn management: pathetically incompetent? or just plain jerks?
 

[ QUOTE ]
poker players... a ...re... ...being bitchy and impossible to please.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Wynn management: pathetically incompetent? or just plain jerks?
 

regardless of the fact that i love the wynn, and will always be staying there, this is pretty incompetent for someone who's job function essentially consists of nothing but keeping games going.

peace

john nickle

Re: Wynn management: pathetically incompetent? or just plain jerks?
 

Wynn is simply overrated

Re: Wynn management: pathetically incompetent? or just plain jerks?
 

I love the room and the competition. The management is nice, they are liberal with comps, but they often drop the ball on the simple things like managing the list and quickly filling empty seats.

Re: Wynn management: pathetically incompetent? or just plain jerks?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I love the room and the competition. The management is nice, they are liberal with comps, but they often drop the ball on the simple things like managing the list and quickly filling empty seats.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Wynn management: pathetically incompetent? or just plain jerks?
 

This is the one thing I don't understand about the Wynn, either. This doesn't seem to be an isolated incident.

I watched this happen to Glenn's table once, a couple of months ago. The room was virtually empty, like in your case. At first the floor refused to give a reason, like in your case. When pressed, he stated that they were "moving" Glenn's table because of a "private" game. When someone asked about gaming commission and allowing a private game, they backtracked and came up with some other excuse (I was not involved in this at all, btw, just a bystander. I never heard the final excuse, as I was called to my game, but it seemed to create a LOT of chaos in the room, and within about an hour, the "private" game was broken, too).

I have no idea what this necessity is at the Wynn to "move" tables, but it definitely seems to happen on day shift, and they never seem to have a real excuse, they just suddenly approach a table, seemingly on a whim, and demand that the players move. Since I have been playing a lot more in the mornings (I know, it's blasphemy, I should be shot), I have seen this happen at the Wynn several times, and I'm not even a local!

No clue what the deal is with that.

Felicia [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Wynn management: pathetically incompetent? or just plain jerks?
 

Can't we all agree that this is why we like Al(despite his recent hiatus), because of posts like this. As an out-of-towner I appreciate every post about poker rooms and how they are run, especially by someone who knows the business. If a new computer will make him post more, maybe we should start a fundraiser....

Re: Wynn management: pathetically incompetent? or just plain jerks?
 

[ QUOTE ]
What would have been the reaction if the floor had been apologetic, ie "Sorry guys but I have to move you", and then offer "No Drop" for the next 20 min?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice dream. I probably would have responded better, and they probably would have kept the game going, if they had the foresight to do this. But there was nothing even remotely apologetic about how they went about breaking up the game. Basically they wanted the game gone, and they got what they wanted. Perhaps their drunk dealers were just too rowdy for the upper limit snobs that might show up in a few hours or so. And Hey, if my money's no good here, I can always go elsewhere. I just feel a bit disillusioned because I thought the wynn was basically well run, despite some problems. Now I think the problems stem from upper management's inability to grasp simple cardroom economics, their lack of caring about pleasing their customers, and their tendency to have their noses up in the air.

I should ask: why would you even START a game at a table where you intend to force them to move (i.e. BREAK) later? Another dropped ball I guess. The mis-management must be coordinated between shifts.

It should be noted that the VAST majority of poker revenue dollars come from the small and lower mid limit game players, NOT the high limit players.

It's OK though guys, I'm not THAT upset. MGM and mirage and a few others still have plenty of the games that wynn is too snooty to keep satisfied customers coming back to.

al

Re: Wynn management: pathetically incompetent? or just plain jerks?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Mason has an article in one of his Poker Essays book which is almost identical to your story. I suggest you photocopy that essay, print out this thread in a couple days, and give both to Wynn management.

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent idea. I think I just might do that.

al

Re: Wynn management: pathetically incompetent? or just plain jerks?
 

You always make great counter-arguements my friend.

True, they probably won't go bankrupt over losing the game. But one irrefutable fact is that a pissed off customer tells far more people about their experience than a happy one. Therefore you have a strong reason to keep people happy rather than pissed off.

The reason I got so pissed off about this one is that both the manager breaking the game and the big cheezeball in charge of it all made it very clear that they couldn't care less whether anyone was upset about breaking the game. When customer service is that unimportant to them, it's pretty easy to change one's mind, especially if it wasn't really made up very strongly in the first place.

Besides that, I just wanted to rant! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

al

Re: Wynn management: pathetically incompetent? or just plain jerks?
 

Anytime you combine tables you usually lose a few players, but anytime you force a table to move, particularly if it's for no obvious reason, you are usually dooming that table to an early end. It's just the way it goes, I can't say I know for sure all the reasons why.

al

Re: Wynn management: pathetically incompetent? or just plain jerks?
 

I know Al, but take a deep breath, now exhale, see you feel better already. I have really found that I can simply refuse to allow things to upset me 99% of the time, and I feel better for it.



That being said --- A story from my room.

We Had a TV break one day. A week later the TV still wasn't working, so I asked the floor why don't they fix the TV. His answer was that the facilities department couldn't get to the TV while their was a game going on at the table below, and the game had not broken for over a week. Even though at various times other tables were available for the game, the management wouldn't move the game for risk of breaking it.

Re: Wynn management: pathetically incompetent? or just plain jerks?
 

[ QUOTE ]
We Had a TV break one day. A week later the TV still wasn't working, so I asked the floor why don't they fix the TV. His answer was that the facilities department couldn't get to the TV while their was a game going on at the table below, and the game had not broken for over a week. Even though at various times other tables were available for the game, the management wouldn't move the game for risk of breaking it.

[/ QUOTE ]

BRAVO. Someone in your room understands that the value of a game that's going is FAR greater than the value of a TV that's NOT going. Maybe they should send a fax to the wynn.

al

Re: Wynn management: pathetically incompetent? or just plain jerks?
 

I've had similar frustrating experiences with Jesse.

Re: Wynn management: pathetically incompetent? or just plain jerks?
 

Wouldn't the solution here from the floor's perspective be to move the game at a time of day when there's a good list? Not much chance of the game breaking when there's 8 people waiting to get in it.

Re: Wynn management: pathetically incompetent? or just plain jerks?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't the solution here from the floor's perspective be to move the game at a time of day when there's a good list? Not much chance of the game breaking when there's 8 people waiting to get in it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would think that during that week they would have had some opportunities to move the game, but at the time it happened the room was generally very busy, so at the times when there was a good chance to move the game (keep in mind that I believe the floor was motivated not only by the desire to not break the game, but also by the desire to not have to listen to the whining of the players being asked to move.) it is also likely that the other tables were probably in use. I also don't know if the availability of the department that would fix/repair the TV would coincide with these times.

Re: Wynn management: pathetically incompetent? or just plain jerks?
 

Al is pissed because he made a special trip to play in the game for less than 2 hours, I would throw a fit also.
The other side Al is where are you going to find mixed games? Aren't they rare at other rooms?
Even with these examples, is the Wynn floor any worse than the other rooms? It seems they are better than most.
So I would chalk it up to a FUBAR and give them another shot.

Re: Wynn management: pathetically incompetent? or just plain jerks?
 

I wouldnt put the fault on the Wynn as much as I would put in on the idiot known as Jesse...I have never had problems with any other employees there....

Another Stupid Jesse Story...

Friend of mine who has been playing at the Wynn fairly regularly since June, gets into an argument with a drunk tourist...he is reprimanded by Jesse and treated like a piece of [censored], at one point Jesse told this regular "Maybe you should find somewhere else to play from now on" and was asked to leave...basically he was a complete dick.

Fast forward 1 month, friend returns to the room, and plays..as he is checking out he asks how many hours he has since inception...he is told only 60 hours total.....he had checks his hours regularly and was up around 1000 last time he was in.....now I ask you did Jesse have his comp hours removed? I believe so....regardless of that he was told he is a known regular and could get comped anything anyways.

Now I play pretty much every weekend and have never had any type of issue at all with the management, but I have had almost no dealings with the day staff, but all this confirms is one idiot at the Wynn does not make a bad room...Viva La Wynn

Re: Wynn management: pathetically incompetent? or just plain jerks?
 

[ QUOTE ]
True, they probably won't go bankrupt over losing the game. But one irrefutable fact is that a pissed off customer tells far more people about their experience than a happy one. Therefore you have a strong reason to keep people happy rather than pissed off.


[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. The Wynn looks like an amazing hotel and I looked forward to playing there on my next trip to Vegas. But if thats the way you get treated there, then forget it. I travel to far to Vegas to get treated like that. There are too many other nice poker rooms in the strip.

Re: Wynn management: pathetically incompetent? or just plain jerks?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
While I agree this is a stupid thing for Wynn to do I'm not sure I understand why so many players leave instead of just switching tables.
It certainly can't be that much of a hassle....but from Al's tone I gather that moving a table like that is almost a sure-fire way to get players to leave which I think is somewhat interesting.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can get away with moving a new game, but moving an ongoing game is always a disaster. Usually at least half the pallyers leave when you move a game. On a related note I hate to combine games because if you have 2 six handed games and try to combine you end up with one 8 handed game.
A lot of times games continue because poker players don't want to rack up and leave, once htey are racked up and standing that is as good of a time as any to leave.

[/ QUOTE ]

The key is to never move a game that has gone all night and players just need the slightest excuse (like you said, racked and standing up) to leave. But if you have a very good reason moving a normal game where most players are in the middle of their playing day is doable.

~ Rick