turn spot
 

6 handed online. Not good player limps in the hijack, player who seems good raises in the co (you don't know anything about him really though), you 3 bet AQo (no club) on the button, both call.

Flop QJT with 2 clubs.

Check, check, bet, only the good player calls.

Turn 8c

he checks, your move?

Re: turn spot
 

I bet and call down if raised.

Re: turn spot
 

I bet here, sure getting checkraised sucks, but I think it sucks a lot more losing to a free card to someone that would have folded to a turn bet.

If he checkraises it's a tough decision but I probably call down. I think it really depends on how aggressive he is though.

Re: turn spot
 

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I bet here, sure getting checkraised sucks, but I think it sucks a lot more losing to a free card to someone that would have folded to a turn bet.

If he checkraises it's a tough decision but I probably call down. I think it really depends on how aggressive he is though.

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It doesn't suck as bad as you think if he'll value bluff the river with worse hands. Yes, the pot is a decent size, but what hands are we ahead of that have a lot of outs against?

Re: turn spot
 

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I bet here, sure getting checkraised sucks, but I think it sucks a lot more losing to a free card to someone that would have folded to a turn bet.

If he checkraises it's a tough decision but I probably call down. I think it really depends on how aggressive he is though.

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It doesn't suck as bad as you think if he'll value bluff the river with worse hands. Yes, the pot is a decent size, but what hands are we ahead of that have a lot of outs against?

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Anything with a club?

Re: turn spot
 

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I think it sucks a lot more losing to a free card to someone that would have folded to a turn bet

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i cant think of any hands that would fold to urnt bet here

Re: turn spot
 

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I think it sucks a lot more losing to a free card to someone that would have folded to a turn bet

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i cant think of any hands that would fold to urnt bet here

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Even so, I think it is correct to still charge them right?

Re: turn spot
 

I bet/call and fold to a river club

Re: turn spot
 

well not if they are gonna bluff the river enough.

Re: turn spot
 

interesting thought

Re: turn spot
 

I check and call river. I can't make him fold anything i want him to fold so i'll settle for inducing a bluff occasionally and never folding the best hand/4outs, though that benefit is of dubious legitimacy.

Surf

Re: turn spot
 

BK,

Can you tell us which two flop cards are clubs?

Re: turn spot
 

I check and call a river bet, betting when checked to on nonclub river.
I need to see a showdown here but it sucks to pay 3 when behind and gain less when ahead. He will bluff the river some of the time anyways, sometimes WE are the ones getting the freecard. I think the pros of the checkthrough really outweigh the cons here.

Re: turn spot
 

I like betting and taking the sure money, more than trying to induce a river bluff, which is far from a sure thing.

Re: turn spot
 

I most certainly bet here. So many hands that need to be charged here, if he check raises, it only kind of sucks. You have to make a club pay, or any king with a pair. Also, if you check, then you have no idea where you stand on the river, if it's say a Q and you have checked the turn and he bets, can you raise? Just don't like sacraficing the knowledge gained by a bet. Ontop of that, if he is a good player, then he will notice if you check the turn and win the river that you are being a pussy for not betting the turn. No one likes to be a pussy.

Re: turn spot
 

Unless we know he has the ability to check-raise a wide-range of hands here, I bet and charge him to outdraw me. If we know him to be rather tricky, then I prefer a check and call on the river by a long shot.

In the first case where I bet the turn, I have every intention of getting to showdown if check-raised.

Anyway, the most important part about this hand for me is getting to a showdown against an unknown. That said, if you think you might fold to a turn check-raise, then by all means, check behind as I think the times he will bluff-bet the river compensates for most of the times we let him draw for free.

Re: turn spot
 

I would almost always check here. I cant see any hand folding that you want to fold, and I doubt you are ahead of his range here. If you are then not much ahead. I just dont think you loose more the times you are behind/way behind then you gain by betting when you are a little ahead.

Re: turn spot
 

Ok so that guy has to be terrified of that board as well. I mean he has to pretty much think you flopped the universe because AQo is like the bottom end of your range there and everything else just made a huge hand. Like he might not even checkraise the turn with 99. Anyway if he checkraises the turn you have like 3 outs sometimes and no outs sometimes and I guess sometimes you are already still ahead and he is semibluffing but on that board I just don't see it from a seemingly good player because he has to think you have a huge hand a good amount of the time so he would have to be pretty insane to semibluff when he is going to get called down by all these non straight monsters and 3 bet by straights so my play would be bet and fold to a checkraise.

-DeathDonkey

Re: turn spot
 

I was the CO in this hand, and the button was a seemingly decent player, but we'd only played 35 hands together or so.

He bet the turn, I c/r, the river blanked, and he called down.

I showed 65 of clubs and dragged the pot.

Do I raise that very often in that spot? (pre-flop) No, but sometimes I do.

I think checking the turn is a good chunk better than betting, and if you do bet, calling down a c/r is a pretty big losing play.

You guys want to 'charge' so bad it's incredible. I think this is one of those boards where there's so much going on on it and you have a pretty weak hand yourself, it's best to just check behind, call a river bet and be done with the hand. If he's a complete moron then you can bet a little easier, but with good players, you just can't get away with trying to charge them in situations like this.

Least that's my thoughts.

Re: turn spot
 

Very interesting. Thanks for the insight BK. After reading your analysis and some of the others, I do agree that checking behind the turn is the correct play.

Re: turn spot
 

another thing to consider, as far "charging draws," is that if he does indeed have a good draw you arent making a lot on your bet.

Re: turn spot
 

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If he's a complete moron then you can bet a little easier, but with good players, you just can't get away with trying to charge them in situations like this.

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Then I can go on betting the turn against 90% of the 5/10 players?

Re: turn spot
 

I would not bet the turn. Our hand is really not very strong on this board, getting check raised sucks because we are most likely beat, have very few outs (and we don't know what they are), but v. a good high limit player we will have the best hand some of the time. Check behind, let him bluff the river. TPTK with AQ is normally a really strong holding, but here I am looking to get to showdown cheap.

Re: turn spot
 

tolbiny and I were discussing this and before reading the responses we decided that it is a close play between checking behind and bet/folding the turn. The final decision was to check behind.

The main reason is there is no way I am paying 3 BB to see this showdown a large % of the time. It's such a huge losing play that you simply can't bet/call here.

Re: turn spot
 

What metetron said. Betting the turn in itself is only bad because you have a gutshot. Calling down when CR'ed is laughable though.