Best book for learning 7stud?
 

I'm thinking of switching to limit hold 'em to 7stud. Could anyone recommend a good book to start with? I was thinking about 7CSFAP, but think it might be too advanced to start with.

Suggestions?

Re: Best book for learning 7stud?
 

start with 7-Card Stud : 42 Lessons How to Win at Medium & Lower Limits by Roy West. then read Seven-Card Stud for Advanced Players by David Sklansky, Mason Malmuth, and Ray Zee.

with the hold 'em explosion why switch? it is good to learn to play different games, but the hold 'em games are so good right now.

a game to learn might be omaha.

Re: Best book for learning 7stud?
 

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start with 7-Card Stud : 42 Lessons How to Win at Medium & Lower Limits by Roy West. then read Seven-Card Stud for Advanced Players by David Sklansky, Mason Malmuth, and Ray Zee.


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I would do them both and in that order. Oh and check out the Stud forum...you are going to have more people who know more about stud there...

---Leavenfish

Re: Best book for learning 7stud?
 

If you have studied poker some, there's really no reason not to dive right into 7CS4AP. If you can't grasp it, I don't really like your chances of beating the game anyway.

Re: Best book for learning 7stud?
 

What helped me most with stud is Chip Reese's chapter in Super System.

Re: Best book for learning 7stud?
 

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If you have studied poker some, there's really no reason not to dive right into 7CS4AP. If you can't grasp it, I don't really like your chances of beating the game anyway.

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Not reading 7CS4AP first would not be because he would not "grasp" the material, but some of the material is worthless at beginner limits. You could know 7CS4AP inside out and not beat the game at some limits. 7CS4AP has lots of discussion on making raises to eliminate the number of opponents in the hand. That is a joke in some games as some people will never fold at the lower limits until their hand is definitely beat. Starting off with a medium limit book would not be a bad idea.

Re: Best book for learning 7stud?
 

Agreed.

If someone was wanting to learn Quantum Physics, one could go straight to a book by the most brilliant person in that field or start off with a book designed to bring you along and introduce the concepts in a more easy to understand manner.

That said, you would go on to the other book. Of course, if something in the more advanced book contradicted what you read in the first book, you would be well advised to lean towards taking it as gospel.

---Leavenfish

Re: Best book for learning 7stud?
 

I am about to pick up the Adams and West book with a Amazon gift-card I am getting. I will give a review once I read them.

Re: Best book for learning 7stud?
 

if you are going to play split games then add;
High-Low Split Poker, Seven Card Stud and Omaha Eight or Better for Advanced Players by Ray Zee

Re: Best book for learning 7stud?
 

OK, the section on ante-stealing is probably not going to help you much in low-limit games. The section on loose games is very relevant to those games, however, and you're costing yourself money if you don't read it.

Re: Best book for learning 7stud?
 

Physics is taught by teaching oversimplified versions of very complex concepts, and gradually correcting these oversimplifications. I don't think that poker is complex enough to warrant this kind of approach.

Re: Best book for learning 7stud?
 

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Physics is taught by teaching oversimplified versions of very complex concepts, and gradually correcting these oversimplifications. I don't think that poker is complex enough to warrant this kind of approach.

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So you think 7CS4AP is the one and only book for players of all skill levels and that's all they need? I would have to disagree. I think that is bad advice for most new players. Jumping straight to the advanced books will be a lot more costly in the long run than picking up a decent middle limits book first to bring you up to speed with the advanced material. I progressed through the limits from the bottom and it is a different game at $2/4 and $3/6 than is described in 7CS4AP. The cards are the same, the game is the same, odds are the same....but the people you encounter are different. That's the difference.

Re: Best book for learning 7stud?
 

Learning 7-stud is still a good idea.
Get and study:

7 Card Stud: The waiting game by George Percy
42 Lessons by Roy West
7CSFAP 2+2 et al.
Elements of 7 card stud by Konstantin Othmer

Re: Best book for learning 7stud?
 

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with the hold 'em explosion why switch? it is good to learn to play different games, but the hold 'em games are so good right now.


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If you've played any 30 or 75 stud in AC lately, you'd realize the game is quite profitable to learn. At high limits, the play at stud tables is much weaker than at comparable hold em tables in my experience (this refers only to live play). Plus, variance is lower (not in terms of suckouts, but in money swings in my experience). Of course, good money can be made at both and I still play more hold em than stud overall - this is just my take though as it applies to where I play.

Jeff

Re: Best book for learning 7stud?
 

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Plus, variance is lower (not in terms of suckouts, but in money swings in my experience).

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I was under the impression that stud was a higher variance game due to the extra round of betting. Is this not true?

Re: Best book for learning 7stud?
 

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Plus, variance is lower (not in terms of suckouts, but in money swings in my experience).

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I was under the impression that stud was a higher variance game due to the extra round of betting. Is this not true?

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FWIW I have always heard that as well.

Re: Best book for learning 7stud?
 

Here's why stud rewards the good player more than he:

1) Exposed cards give you more information to work with in reading hands. Simply being able to remember what's out gives you an edge over some players!

2. Extra round of betting favors the good player in two ways: 1. It gives you better implied odds to limp in early and mix it up. 2 It gives you one more street to extract full value from bad players.

The big edge that hold'em has is that it's the game of choice for almost all the new/fishy players

Re: Best book for learning 7stud?
 

The reason there is more "variance" in stud doesn't have to do with the extra round of betting really. It's more because A) the river card is dealt down (thus forcing you to pay off bets you wouldn't have to in hold em and causing you to miss some thin bets you'd make in hold em) and B) the fact that it's not a shared board game so suckouts are more frequent. For example, if you have AA in a hold em game and someone else has pocket sixes, it is hard for them to end up beating you. Also, say you have AK and the board is A 7 2 and you're against someone with A9 in hold em. It's tough for them to suck out. In stud, pair verse pair scenarios allow for more suckouts.

That said, I find there to be less variance in stud due to several other factors: generally less aggressive play and fewer opponents with any real skill even at high levels (I refer only to Atlantic City for this); many opponents who like to let free cards slide off; many opponents who will only raise later streets with a total boardlock, allowing you to always know where you're at; many opponents who won't bet the river without a monster; the fact that while there is more info to process than hold em and you have to pay much more attention, once you process the data, the decision is usually easy. This contrasts hold em where there are many more strategic gray areas.

I can go on and on, but I won't. I love both games for different reasons, but in my experience something like 75-150 stud is FAR less swingy and "easier" to beat than a typical 80-160 hold em game.

Jeff

Re: Best book for learning 7stud?
 

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The reason there is more "variance" in stud doesn't have to do with the extra round of betting really. It's more because A) the river card is dealt down (thus forcing you to pay off bets you wouldn't have to in hold em and causing you to miss some thin bets you'd make in hold em) and B) the fact that it's not a shared board game so suckouts are more frequent.

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Hmmm, since you apparently know what you speak of, this is quite surprising. My understanding from reading Mason's essays was that it's not so much the difference in structure between stud and hold'em that causes variance, but rather the size of the antes. Since low limit stud has a small ante, it has small variance, and since high limit stud has higher antes, it has higher variance. In essence high limit stud becomes more of a showdown contest, which gives no one an advantage.

(caveats: (1) I have barely played any stud. (2) There's a chance I'm misunderstanding what Mason wrote. (3) In all likelihood, I can resolve your statements with Mason's by positing that some of the high limit 7stud players today must really be atrocious, then, compared to the hold'em players)

Re: Best book for learning 7stud?
 

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My understanding from reading Mason's essays was that it's not so much the difference in structure between stud and hold'em that causes variance, but rather the size of the antes.

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This is sort of true - as the antes go up proportionally, the variance increases. For example, 5-10 and 10-20 stud are tightly structured (witth a 50 cent and $1 ante respectively). 20-40 stud has a $3 ante, this jump makes chasing slightly more correct and punishes rock tight play on third - as in, you have to steal the antes more. 75 stud has a $15 ante, $25 bring-in. So yes, that's what Mason refers to as a roller coaster ride in his writings on it and it's true, esp. if you're playing against aggressive players who understand the impact of the structure (or just really loose aggro morons). I don't play against such individuals, so I don't have to go apeshit on third because they don't do that. I still do steal quite a bit though, but I can pick my spots. Also, my opponents are not that aggressive on later streets - if they were, the game would play differently.

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In essence high limit stud becomes more of a showdown contest, which gives no one an advantage.


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This is WAY off. People generally play incorrectly for the structure (too tight, too loose, too passive, etc) so that is an edge. Also, the reason for the higher ante is to handicap truly expert stud players when they play idiots. The higher ante prevents them from losing their money AS QUICKLY. They still must go broke, but they get good gamble for their money and their faults A) playing dead cards, not raising to knock people out, not checkraising, etc, aren't punished as much in the short run. So it makes it a good gamble for them -- but they can and do go lose tons of money in the long run. Come down to the Taj Mahal and see for yourself.

I'd talk more but I have some work to do now.

Jeff

Re: Best book for learning 7stud?
 

Hi disjunction:

What I've written is that excellent stud players have a higher standard deviation than excellent hold 'em players, while bad stud players have a smaller standard deviation than bad hold 'em players.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: Best book for learning 7stud?
 

Jeffage, Mason

Thanks for the comments and clarifications.

Re: Best book for learning 7stud?
 

The original poster implied that he was an experienced player who has studied some. For a player like him, I see no reason not to jump right into 7CS4AP. As for a less experienced player, they might benefit from a less "advanced" text, but the other books that are out there stink for the most part. West's book has gaping holes in it. Othmer's book is unreadable. I've only read about half of the Adams book and wasn't impressed by it. Kammen's book is terrible. The only books that are out there that I think have any decent stud content, and I have most of them, are the original Super/System and Mason's Essays books.

I honestly think that anyone who is interested in learning stud is best served by reading 7CS4AP and TOP and trying to apply the concepts that are relevant to his game. Use some common sense. If there is no ante, don't bother stealing. If people aren't folding, don't try to knock them out. The section on loose games is applicable to lots and lots of games, including almost any that a beginner is likely to sit in.

Re: Best book for learning 7stud?
 

Hey Andy

I agree with you on Kammen and West. I think Adams' book is quite good and a great intro along with Reese's chapter in SS1. TOP is mandatory of course, and a re-read of this along with 7CSFAP after 10.000 hands at low limits should push anybody in the right direction.

I've tried some 7CSFAP concepts out at the $1/$2 limits and the success is minimal. For instance, raising 3rd with a 3-flush and two overcards to the board isn't winning the overcard outs for me, because nobody with anything folds. You must understand that at these limits, people chase OESDs against open trips, they don't care about paired door cards, and they chase with completely dead cards. This is great, because you can win at alarming rates. Undoubtedly, 7CSFAP is the book. I've read it several times and it is amazing for thinking about the game, but it doesn't give you the ABC approach that beginners need and that takes the money at the low limits. Stud is played much worse than HE below $3/$6.

I'm not the greatest HE player ever, but I'm running at 3.5BB/100 at $1/$2. For stud at the same limit, it's more than three times that.

Since you're an accomplished stud player yourself, I think you underestimate the practical advise that new players need. Adams will give them that. 7CSFAP is what catapults them into true stud players.

Cheers,

Smurf

Re: Best book for learning 7stud?
 

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(I refer only to Atlantic City for this)

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Have you spent any significant time in the Foxwoods 75 stud? How does it compare? (I'm a long way from this limit, but if the Foxwoods 75 game is this good, it's something to aspire to.)

Re: Best book for learning 7stud?
 

I've never played 75 stud at Foxwoods, but I plan on visiting there soon. The few times I've been to Foxwoods were a couple years ago and I mostly played mid limit hold em. I've heard the 75 games are as good as AC, but I haven't seen it yet...I'd be surprised if they weren't soft.

BTW, I've seen similar bad play at 150-300 stud in AC, but I just don't quite have the ability to withstand swings like that yet. Limits are a good thing. But generally, high limit stud in the east seems to attract rich businessmen and few very skilled players that you need to concern yourself with. I've heard 100-200 stud at Commerce is much tougher. I played 50-100 stud at Bellagio and it was soft, but definitely tougher than 75 stud in AC.

Jeff

Re: Best book for learning 7stud?
 

If you have a live three-flush with two over-cards to the board, it is well worth raising with on third street even if (maybe especially if) no one is folding.

Re: Best book for learning 7stud?
 

Yeah, I still like the play, but if you know that it will not deter anybody, so you don't get the fold equity, I'm afraid I'm merely sweetening the pot odds for the oddball draws. I think there are a couple of plays in 7CSFAP that needs people folding or suddenly you're violating the ideas in the chapter "An important concept borrowed from Razz".

Re: Best book for learning 7stud?
 

I put the Adams book in my Amazon wish list a while ago and forgot about it. Today, I look at my list and find the Adams book available from the Marketplace section for 20 cents. Naturally, I placed an order. Yeah, it got a bad review from Mason, but I've never read a single book or article about 7stud, so I figured it's worth $3.69 (shipping is $3.49).

Re: Best book for learning 7stud?
 

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What helped me most with stud is Chip Reese's chapter in Super System.

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I agree...I find Super System to be a good way to get the basics down of any game and being aggressive (as long as you know the rules of how to play the game that you are trying to learn). SS II does a good job of explaining the games and rules which may be more of a help

Re: Best book for learning 7stud?
 

It really depends on the stakes you are planning to start in. Many players that have played HE and/or Omaha for years may be able to comprehend principles of stud much easier than others. If you understand solid poker practices and plan on playing anything other than small stakes right away, 7CSFAP is what you should read.

If you are going to start in lower stakes and have to learn from scratch, then read:
1. Seven Card Stud by Ashley Adams
2. The Stud Section in Super System
3. Play a few thousand hands
4. SCSFAP (upon moving up in stakes)
5. 7CS (oringinally titled The Elements of 7CS) by K. Orthmer. This is more of a mathematical text book that breaks down each playable hand using a great deal of statistics, charts and graphs that will be difficult to digest for most. For example, one chapter may be titled "4th street" and the different sections within the chapter will break down each possible playing hand such as "premium pairs" or "4 flushes" against a varying number of opponent's hands.

dandy

Re: Best book for learning 7stud?
 

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Hi disjunction:

What I've written is that excellent stud players have a higher standard deviation than excellent hold 'em players, while bad stud players have a smaller standard deviation than bad hold 'em players.

Best wishes,
Mason

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Huh? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Best book for learning 7stud?
 

How does "Championship Stud" by Max Stern and Linda Johnson rate? Good? Bad? Awful?

Re: Best book for learning 7stud?
 

I think 7CSFAP is the way to go if you plan on playing any middle limit stud and higher. I also think that if you find difficult to remember the folded upcards in stud this game is not for you and you should try omaha.