This hand illustrates why I\'m terrible at LHE
 

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button caps</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, CO calls.

Flop: (17 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Button calls, SB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (10.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Button folds, SB calls, Hero calls.

River: (13.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: 13.50 BB

CO is unknown. Button and SB seem reasonable.

I have no idea where I am at at any point in this hand.

Re: This hand illustrates why I\'m terrible at LHE
 

I'd check raise flop and lead turn on a none ace. Fold if raised you on turn. Call down if raised on the flop, fold to ace or king. If you make it to the river, check/call. Reads would change things though.

Re: This hand illustrates why I\'m terrible at LHE
 

You complain that you have no clue where you're at, yet your own play caused this. I'm not sure about pre-flop because it depends on your opponents preflop starting hand ranges, but whatever. As to the flop, you have got to bet this here. There's probably a minefield of overcards out there plus a flushdraw. A free card here is brutal.

Simply put, if you're not going to bet JJ when you flop an overpair, why were you coldcalling the two back to you preflop? Other than a J, this is one of the better flops you could reasonably hope for. Bet.

Re: This hand illustrates why I\'m terrible at LHE
 

[ QUOTE ]
You complain that you have no clue where you're at, yet your own play caused this. I'm not sure about pre-flop because it depends on your opponents preflop starting hand ranges, but whatever. As to the flop, you have got to bet this here. There's probably a minefield of overcards out there plus a flushdraw. A free card here is brutal.

Simply put, if you're not going to bet JJ when you flop an overpair, why were you coldcalling the two back to you preflop? Other than a J, this is one of the better flops you could reasonably hope for. Bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

This flop gets checked through pretty close to never.

Re: This hand illustrates why I\'m terrible at LHE
 

[ QUOTE ]

This flop gets checked through pretty close to never.

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c/r the field here is tough. If you think CO will raise most hands he 3-bet you pf with, leading the flop would be best. You don't lose anyone by c/r and your top priority should be to force out overcards. You could buy yourself 3 or 6 outs that way. But c/c or c/r the flop (c/r is better) and then leading a safe turn (possibly folding the turn if flop is 3bet) works as well.

My favourite line is to lead the flop, re-evaluating on the turn, followed by c/r the flop and leading a safe turn, followed by c/c the flop and leading a safe turn.

Re: This hand illustrates why I\'m terrible at LHE
 

A sidelight about limit: people will sometimes just freak out and 3-bet/cap with the weirdest crap preflop. It's like some sort of anger release thing or something. Then they pop back into line after the flop, when they realize they're screwed.

I bet this flop with JJ all day long. I'd even consider 3-betting if raised, although if CO raises and button 3-bets, it might be time to consider a higher PP out there.

CO may well think he has the best hand with 99/TT/AK if no one's going to play back at him...and by the river check-through, that's what it looks like he has.

Re: This hand illustrates why I\'m terrible at LHE
 

[ QUOTE ]
This flop gets checked through pretty close to never.

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Simply knowing there'll be a bet is not enough reason for a checkraise.

As far as we know from the PF action, CO will bet, and Button will raise. Do we have enough equity against at least two reasonable opponents for a check-3bet? I'm thinking no.

Re: This hand illustrates why I\'m terrible at LHE
 

I suppose I should explain this post.

I started playing LHE just recently, and I did quite well at 3/6 the past few months, but at 5/10 I simply have not been able to handle the increased aggression. I feel like I'm constantly getting steamrolled when I don't hit great flops, yet I always seem to pick the wrong spots to make a stand. I posted this hand out of frustration because it's such a clear example of how bad I'm playing. I know it's bad, I know what the replies will be, yet I still play bad. When a reasonable player coldcaps preflop and another reasonable player calls four bets cold I think I'm [censored], but I have to call two more here for set value. Then the flop comes out and the players that I'm most concerned about just call. So maybe they both have AK?! But the CO surely must have an overpair to be betting in this spot. He's done nothing to indicate that he couldn't have AA-QQ. On the turn I don't know if I've improved or gotten worse; don't know if I'll win if the river blanks and don't know if I'll win with a flush.

So this in a nutshell is how I play-- my opponents represent hands that beat me, and I have an okay hand, so I just call them down to see if I win. Whenever I try playing back at people, I just end up getting reraised, and talk myself into calling down despite the fact that I now have even more information telling me I'm beaten, because I've seen so many people overplay weak pairs and gosh the pot is so big that it would really suck to fold the winner. And whenever I do fold a reasonable hand, I feel like I'm playing right into the hands of these guys that will go to war on the flop with any pair.

Re: This hand illustrates why I\'m terrible at LHE
 

I think most of us understand your sentiments all to well. Its clearly a mindset that comes from running bad and its almost certainly the form of tilt I call showdown bias. It's subtle and insiduous and fighting it just a bit too aggressively is a specatcular way to make a downswing worse.

I think that what tends to be forgotten is that when you meet agresion with more aggression the most common result is passivity from the original aggressor. Instead you fear that when you "make a stand" your going to be met with dicey raises and so "just get to showdown and let them do the betting for me" becomes your motto. Result: bad beats hurt more because your not getting value when you should be.

My best advice to deal with it is to drop way down and play a few hundred hands. Hell, play the nanos on stars and run the bastards over for a bit, just get a feel for aggression and value in a context where you won't be cringing when you loose some good sized pots.

Re: This hand illustrates why I\'m terrible at LHE
 

Your problem with limit hold em is your lack of reads.

I'm betting out though.

Re: This hand illustrates why I\'m terrible at LHE
 

Trans has good advice. You sound like you are on a downswing and feel like you can't win. If it going to keep you playing hands scared like this, you should probably move down in limits until you are comfortable again.

As for the line to take, I say bet out the flop to try to thin the field. If the CO or button raise, call and donk the turn. Too often on a flop like this a raise from the CO or button will just mean overcards. Just because these players "seem resonable" doesn't mean that they are holding AA-QQ. They could just as likely have 77-TT or AK, AQ, AJ, and maybe even KQs, JTs, QJs in some cases.

Re: This hand illustrates why I\'m terrible at LHE
 

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Your problem with limit hold em is your lack of reads.

I'm betting out though.

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I agree that betting out here is better than c/r'ing. Don't open yourself up to a 3 bet. You have the J of clubs. I fire every street. If somebody raises I will call flop and turn.

Re: This hand illustrates why I\'m terrible at LHE
 

Here's the deal. You are either way ahead here or way behind a whole lot. It is quite possible that one of the villains has a pp like TT or 99 or something. The other one could have AK or AQ. Actually, one could have AQ and the other could have AK. You aren't going to know where you are in the hand unless you bet/call (be careful if it's three bet back to you ) on the flop and then lead the turn and see what happens. It would be unusual for someone with AK or TT to keep the aggression on as you hit the bigger streets. You're ahead here plenty and your bets are generally for value. By continually betting, you are telling the other players that you are not backing down so unless they are sitting on (almost exactly) AA, KK or QQ they will not keep popping you. This is especially so if your read on them as not quite total maniacs is correct.

So, I'd bet/call the flop and then perhaps bet/fold the turn. It is possible that calling the turn may be ok if you're getting somewhere around 15 or 16-1 at this point. You are a 22:1 shot roughly to spike a jack.