PS 20/180: Fishhooks on the first hand
 

Very first hand of a PS 20/180, so no reads obviously. I get jacks and reraise a MP1 minraiser from CO. BB and minraiser call, I cbet a moderately draw-friendly flop, and then turn a boat.

Everything is pretty standard until the turn. Do I bet the turn again for value, make a weak bet that offers proper drawing odds, or check and hope MP bets the river or I can get a value bet there?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) converter

Button (t1500)
SB (t1500)
BB (t1500)
UTG (t1500)
UTG+1 (t1500)
MP1 (t1500)
MP2 (t1500)
MP3 (t1500)
Hero (t1500)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises to t40</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t130</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls t110, MP1 calls t90.

Flop: (t400) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t300</font>, BB folds, MP1 calls t300.

Turn: (t1000) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP1 checks, Hero ???

Re: PS 20/180: Fishhooks on the first hand
 

This may seem weird. But I bet 300 again. That way your river push won't look really big.

Re: PS 20/180: Fishhooks on the first hand
 

A bet-check-bet looks nice here I think. Comes across weaker than another bet on the turn which could very well make him fold. He might decide he can steal the pot on the river or he could catch something. More value in checking here I think, and the river is unlikely to hurt you.

Re: PS 20/180: Fishhooks on the first hand
 

I think ZBT's line is great here. This is a situation that doesn't seem to come up too often, but it can be extremely profittable depending on villain's holdings.

Re: PS 20/180: Fishhooks on the first hand
 

That is a hand the villain (or me) could go real broke on.

Re: PS 20/180: Fishhooks on the first hand
 

I don't see a lot of value in betting this turn as QQ-AA will get it in on the river anyway and your forcing 88-1010 to fold a lot here. I would just check the turn hoping to induce a bluff from 88-1010 or hoping something like AK will hit their overcard. Push river if checked as this could be seen as a desperate bluff by AK and get a call from Jx or sometimes 88-1010 (assuming river is a blank).

Re: PS 20/180: Fishhooks on the first hand
 

I like ZBHorton's line as well.

This guy was willing to call 300 on that flop, I think he'll call it again.

Unless I've seen villain be aggressive towards weakness, I don't think that induced bluff comes often enough on this board to check on a board like this. I'd rather just get another call out of him for when he decides to fold the river.

For all we know the bluff we induce might come in the form of a donkbet. Not much of a payoff.

Re: PS 20/180: Fishhooks on the first hand
 

Any thoughts from the daytime crowd? Seems like we have a split decision so far between a small turn bet and a turn check to try and induce a river bet by Villain or let him catch up enough to call a river bet.

Re: PS 20/180: Fishhooks on the first hand
 

In general, I like both approaches.

However here, I would donk bet 300 because I'm pretty sure he'll call. I may even bet less to show weakness but to keep sweetening the pot. My line would definitely be to represent that style on the 180 that we've come to know and love where someone just keeps sticking in small bets because they don't know what else to do.

A different tournie, agaisnt a better field of players, and I might check behind on the turn to induce a bluff on the river. In the 180, I would imagine that the majority of players would read this as weakness but not have the guts to do anything about it and just be happy to get to show down.

Re: PS 20/180: Fishhooks on the first hand
 

Fair enough.

Quickie results.

I basically opted for the ZBT line. For some reason I decided I had to bet more than I did on the flop, so I bet 400 instead of 300, and Villain folded. In hindsight, I was debating bet-check-bet as schauvit suggested, and wanted to see what the consensus here was.

Re: PS 20/180: Fishhooks on the first hand
 

my thoughts are so.. preflop your raise isn't too big for a MTT and i have a feeling MP1 called because of his odds and people hate tossing hands once invested. On the flop, the smooth call of MP1 makes me think he has a 6, 77, A7, or OESD.. my thoughts on this turn are to overbet the pot making it look as though you hit a jack and are isolating. Reasons here are, AQ flush draw will call here for odds to overcard hit, 6 will smooth call thinking he has you trapped, as will 7.. no one thinks you are betting JJ or your diamond draw so play aggressive and keep them calling.. because if you bet small and they raise and you call.. then they wonder if they are best with A-6

Re: PS 20/180: Fishhooks on the first hand
 

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my thoughts are so.. preflop your raise isn't too big for a MTT and i have a feeling MP1 called because of his odds and people hate tossing hands once invested. On the flop, the smooth call of MP1 makes me think he has a 6, 77, A7, or OESD.. my thoughts on this turn are to overbet the pot making it look as though you hit a jack and are isolating. Reasons here are, AQ flush draw will call here for odds to overcard hit, 6 will smooth call thinking he has you trapped, as will 7.. no one thinks you are betting JJ or your diamond draw so play aggressive and keep them calling.. because if you bet small and they raise and you call.. then they wonder if they are best with A-6

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I don't think this makes any sense.

If we bet, and they raise. We're all in, or so close to it that it doesn't matter.

I don't see how overbetting the flop can possibly be a good idea. &lt;-- on the turn that is.

Re: PS 20/180: Fishhooks on the first hand
 

You raised preflop, C-bet the flop and he checks the turn. I throw out a weakish bet, like 300. It shows weakness and looks like you are just firing another bullet. I do not check behind on the turn. Most of the time AK or small pair is not going to fire on a missed river. So, on the turn, I bet for value, feigning weakness and hope to induce a sizable c/r.

Re: PS 20/180: Fishhooks on the first hand
 

I think your range for MP1 on the very first hand of a SNG is ridiculously tight. What about an overpair to the board, AK, AQ, AJ, AT, KQ, etc. This is the first hand of a 20/180.

Re: PS 20/180: Fishhooks on the first hand
 

One other thing I'll throw out there.

If I happened to check behind on the turn, I'd push the river.

Re: PS 20/180: Fishhooks on the first hand
 

Really? You think a push &gt; value bet on the river? You figure anything he'll call a value bet, he'll call a push with?

Re: PS 20/180: Fishhooks on the first hand
 

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Fair enough.

Quickie results.

I basically opted for the ZBT line. For some reason I decided I had to bet more than I did on the flop, so I bet 400 instead of 300, and Villain folded. In hindsight, I was debating bet-check-bet as schauvit suggested, and wanted to see what the consensus here was.

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FWIW

I like a check better than a bet. Villian doesn't check the flop and turn with any hand that can catch up to you. (AA,KK,QQ) and turn bet may force him to fold a hand that is drawing dead.

Re: PS 20/180: Fishhooks on the first hand
 

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Really? You think a push &gt; value bet on the river? You figure anything he'll call a value bet, he'll call a push with?

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Yeah. I overbet rivers alot when I have super strong hands. People always seem to think I'm weak and will call down with almost any piece. Just a personal thing though.

Re: PS 20/180: Fishhooks on the first hand
 

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Really? You think a push &gt; value bet on the river? You figure anything he'll call a value bet, he'll call a push with?

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Yeah. I overbet rivers alot when I have super strong hands. People always seem to think I'm weak and will call down with almost any piece. Just a personal thing though.

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Interesting. I usually go for the value bet. I guess if you push 10 times and get called once, that's probably more +cEV in the long run than if you value bet 10 times and get called 5 times.

Re: PS 20/180: Fishhooks on the first hand
 

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Really? You think a push &gt; value bet on the river? You figure anything he'll call a value bet, he'll call a push with?

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Yeah. I overbet rivers alot when I have super strong hands. People always seem to think I'm weak and will call down with almost any piece. Just a personal thing though.

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Interesting. I usually go for the value bet. I guess if you push 10 times and get called once, that's probably more +cEV in the long run than if you value bet 10 times and get called 5 times.

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A really good example of this happened to be about a week ago in the 55K.

We're just after the break, I've got 20K+ and so does one oher stack. I raise PF w/ KQo and the flop comes K-K-Q.

He checks, I bet the flop he calls.
He checks, I check behind planning on trapping him
He bets into me, I push for like...a zillion bb's and he insta-calls w/ AQ.

Re: PS 20/180: Fishhooks on the first hand
 

check behind, if he checks the river, push to represent a desperate bluff that missed a draw

Re: PS 20/180: Fishhooks on the first hand
 

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Really? You think a push &gt; value bet on the river? You figure anything he'll call a value bet, he'll call a push with?

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Yeah. I overbet rivers alot when I have super strong hands. People always seem to think I'm weak and will call down with almost any piece. Just a personal thing though.

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I've started doing this as well. Bizarre how often it works. On the other hand I'm also the guy doing the calling. "No way he overbets like that if he has a real hand! Oh, the nuts. GG."

Re: PS 20/180: Fishhooks on the first hand
 

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Really? You think a push &gt; value bet on the river? You figure anything he'll call a value bet, he'll call a push with?

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Yeah. I overbet rivers alot when I have super strong hands. People always seem to think I'm weak and will call down with almost any piece. Just a personal thing though.

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I've started doing this as well. Bizarre how often it works. On the other hand I'm also the guy doing the calling. "No way he overbets like that if he has a real hand! Oh, the nuts. GG."

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