I\'m going to do a LAG experiment
 

OK,

So HSNL forum was no help in teaching us how to play LAG, so we're going to teach ourselves! So this is what I'm going to do:

There's no way I want to play an experimental game at my normal stakes ($200) so I'm going to drop down to $50, cos I reckon I can handle losing a few buy-ins there and I might well still get some FE there.

Now I want you guys to throw ideas at me here...I mean ANY ideas on how you think a good LAG game should be played. I want things like:
How wide my preflop raising range should be from various positions (I'll be playing 6max).

What hands I can call to a raise on the button.

When I can multi barrel.

When I can lead flops with air.

What hands I can Call OOP preflop.

What hands should I 3bet preflop.

What hands I should get AI with preflop.

Or just anything else really.

Then I'm going to open up 2 tables, play really tight for about 20-30 hands and hopefully show down a winner, then switch gears on their unsuspecting asses, using all the wonderful advice you're about to give.

Then I'll report back with the most awesome trip report of all time.

And we'll all become amazing players

And we'll school all those HSNL chumps!

Re: I\'m going to do a LAG experiment
 

I really think any rules like this are a bad idea for LAG play. Read some of Jamaugha's posts, he has some good stuff. LAG is all about reading their hands and also reading their style.

Here's my suggestion :

1. Play your normal TAG game, *but* any time you think someone is just on a late-position raise & continuation, take the pot from them. Mix in reraises preflop, floats, check-raises on the flop, etc. Ideally have a draw when you do this so you have outs in case it goes bad.

2. Next, open up your LP steal & continuation range. If it folds to you in late position, open almost any two. If you think someone is trying to call you down with something weak, or trying to float your cbet, bomb the pot and take it away by check-raising the turn vs. floaters, etc.

The guys in HSNL do this all the time. They may not respond directly to your request for LAG help, but if you just read some hands you'll see this is a major part of the HSNL game (eg. resteals from the blinds against a suspect button steal, etc.)

Re: I\'m going to do a LAG experiment
 

I'm in. Probably not for as many hands as you, as my bankroll isn't as deep, but definitely in.

I'm at work and don't have time for a real post in this thread, but

- start thinking about particular ways in which opponents react badly to your LAG play.
- some people call any size raise PF, so you can punish/isolate them
- some people call surprisingly large bets on the flop and then fold surprisingly small bets on the turn .. figuring out the smallest amt. that villains will fold for seems much more important.
- in my limited experience, people open their raising and calling standards preflop, but not their reraising standards.
- lots of people get way more tenacious on the flop, but not so much on the turn.

for me, this takes a lot more discipline than my normal game. as someone said in the other thread, people call you down with 2nd pair all the time and you suddenly convince yourself that TPTK is a monster and you get stacked. the "small" pots are much larger, but it's still "small pots with small hands and big pots with big hands."

most people just won't play back at you too much, even if you get caught. and if they do play back at you, they'll probably only play back at you for a hand or two and then go back into their shell.

i get reads on people a lot faster because i'm playing a lot more hands against them.

back to work for me.

[ QUOTE ]
Then I'll report back with the most awesome trip report of all time.

And we'll all become amazing players

And we'll school all those HSNL chumps!


[/ QUOTE ]
yes, please!

Re: I\'m going to do a LAG experiment
 

I normally play full ring, but here goes ...

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What hands I can call to a raise on the button.

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-any small/medium pair
-any suited connector. 1- or 2-gapped

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When I can multi barrel.

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When you're heads up in position against a nit and you were the aggressor preflop. Board should be threatening enough to villian, but not too threatening to you.

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When I can lead flops with air.

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Leading into a preflop raiser??? - all rag flops I suppose, especially when you have had the chance to show down a b3b with a small set against a preflop raiser.

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What hands I can Call OOP preflop.

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-small/medium pairs for set value, but I don't like playing suited connectors OOP

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What hands should I 3bet preflop.

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-typical TAG hands - AA, KK, AK?, QQ?

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What hands I should get AI with preflop.

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AA of course, KK probably, AK???? dunno


Good luck. Look forward to the report.

Re: I\'m going to do a LAG experiment
 

cbloom,

When I'm playing my A-game, I do everything you suggest. But I just consider that to be a good TAG rather than LAG at all

Re: I\'m going to do a LAG experiment
 

xGREGORx,

Your advice is good, but its very TAG adive mainly

Re: I\'m going to do a LAG experiment
 

I've been getting all experimental-LAG and have actually been reasonably succcessful this week with it [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

ideas:
How wide my preflop raising range should be from various positions (I'll be playing 6max).

Wide. Anything suited - anything connected - any ace - any PP.

What hands I can call to a raise on the button.

any 2 - depending on the pfraiser and how big the raise is. I'm pushing back with monsters AA-QQ AKs AQs - and smooth calling with all the cards in my (pretty wide) raising range and folding everything else - if it's a bigger than -5xBB raise preflop I'll stick to my normal TAG calling standards.

When I can multi barrel.

Whenever you smell weakness. I noticed that someplayers will call flop bets and then fold any turn unless they have a monster. Whereas some will call all the way down to the river - and then fold to a half pot bet. Some of them even fold to my flop PSB's. so pay attention to each player at the table and take an appropriate line.

When I can lead flops with air.

When you have position - when a weak/tightie is your only caller (as a 2nd barrel on the turn will usually take care of them)

What hands I can Call OOP preflop.

same range as preflop raising hands

What hands should I 3bet preflop.

I was only 3-betting monsters - and then my 3-bets were pushes.

What hands I should get AI with preflop.

none - unless you have a monster hand and are 3-betting all-in.

Or just anything else really.

each table I sat at to play crazy LAG style I bought in or $10 ($25NL) I planned on throwing the $10 to the wolves getting caught playing dodgy cards then quietly switching gears a little later - having reloaded to the full 100BB.

My strategy basically boils down to - get crazy from the first hand. Blow $10 playing like a maniac (and a further $10 if need be) watch other players start playing back with less than optimal cards - then reload and play a *little* tighter. i.e. stop calling raises OOP with junk - see as many cheapish flops as possible and don't take anything to showdown if it can't beat TPTK.

A couple of times while I was in "donating" mode with my first $10 I caught on the river - layed a gruesome bad beat on some poor unsuspecting donk - set them on full blown monkey-tilt - sat back played TAG and collected their money.

LAG is fun [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] - the swings are a bitch tho. I think I could have a lot of success with this in the future if I can only focus it a bit better and make better reads.

I am roughly break even this week playing this maniac/LAG style.

Re: I\'m going to do a LAG experiment
 

Cardrunners.com. Watch Green Plastic's videos. Watching 30 minutes of video saves you hours and hours of reading and experimenting.

(I have no affiliation with the site).

Re: I\'m going to do a LAG experiment
 

[ QUOTE ]
Cardrunners.com. Watch Green Plastic's videos. Watching 30 minutes of video saves you hours and hours of reading and experimenting.

(I have no affiliation with the site).

[/ QUOTE ]
Anyone have any experience getting this to work under Linux?

Re: I\'m going to do a LAG experiment
 

I have no clue how to play LAG.

But, I might one day experiment this donkey style that is sort of LAGgish: Raise 75% of your hands PF, usually 2x or 3x but sometimes 6xbb. Autobet all flops for 1/4 pot at least. Most SSNL'ers can't adjust to that.

Re: I\'m going to do a LAG experiment
 

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xGREGORx,

Your advice is good, but its very TAG adive mainly

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yeah - PT has me as borderline LAG/TAG. Guess it shows, but it works for me in the PTBB/100 column

Re: I\'m going to do a LAG experiment
 

play to make money

playing specifically to gain in image is silly

don't do it

Re: I\'m going to do a LAG experiment
 

One word: fimbulwinter

Search and read, and you'll be good to go.

Re: I\'m going to do a LAG experiment
 

I do play to make money.

I also play for entertainment - and LAGging it up is fun [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I don't have a problem with blowing a whole buyin when I first sit down - altho obviously I don't do this all the time.

2 of the biggest fish on my buddy list now follow ME to MY tables. I think building yourself a image can be +EV as long as you have several gears to your game - and know when to switch. There are very very few Small Stakes players that can adjust - most seem to pigeon hole you after 50 hands or so and then rarely change their opinion.

Re: I\'m going to do a LAG experiment
 

I think image is a huge part of LAG, and I try to use it to offset my opponents. Showing a couple of bold bluffs works wonders sometimes. It can tick off the ABC players, it makes the weak/tight players even easier to bully, and over all it will give you action like you wouldn't believe from the looser players. Of course, for all this to happen you have to really trust your instincts. You also have to have someone to pick on (at least one tight player at the table).
If you start showing good check raise bluffs and things like that, you can have people check raising you with middle pair when you have a set.

What a lot of people disagree with about the idea of showing a few bluffs, is that it will take away your overall ability to run a bluff. This is just a myth. Once people see how strong you are they are either easier to bluff or they give you action. As long as you continually pick your spots then you're fine.

Good image? Big +EV.

Re: I\'m going to do a LAG experiment
 

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2 of the biggest fish on my buddy list now follow ME to MY tables.

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[img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Guess most important thing is that people looking for entertainment have a great time with you. They get excitement, great bluffs and tons of action.

This is something Doyle speaks about at his book as something important, to build an image as an action man.

Sometimes I just feel like bug, when I spot some loose players trying to have a good time and me there, tight and selecting my hands, doing everything except funny things.

I don't mind myself, of course, I find very, very funny making money. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

By the way, link to a post from HSNL LAG player ...

Showing Bluffs

regards,

dardo

Re: I\'m going to do a LAG experiment
 

dbitel,

It seems that playing a LAG game has overcome your normal need to make money.

FWIW, I play a pretty decent LAG game when I only 1-table, so I can make a video of it (or you guys can sweat me). Let me know if anyone is interested, I'll do it soon.

Re: I\'m going to do a LAG experiment
 

I think a good starting point is to use your position more aggressively. Dont' do the stuff when you're out of position. For example out must steal from button when only limpers or posters in the pot, but this might be your normal move also. If SB open limps, make him fold from BB and thinks like that.

I would try to spot the weak-tight players, and play super-aggro against them. I think a lag does not do much open limping and calling pre-flop, that's donkey play.

Re: I\'m going to do a LAG experiment
 

1 here!

dardo.

Re: I\'m going to do a LAG experiment
 

[ QUOTE ]
dbitel,

It seems that playing a LAG game has overcome your normal need to make money.

FWIW, I play a pretty decent LAG game when I only 1-table, so I can make a video of it (or you guys can sweat me). Let me know if anyone is interested, I'll do it soon.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sure.

Re: I\'m going to do a LAG experiment
 

[ QUOTE ]
dbitel,

It seems that playing a LAG game has overcome your normal need to make money.

FWIW, I play a pretty decent LAG game when I only 1-table, so I can make a video of it (or you guys can sweat me). Let me know if anyone is interested, I'll do it soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cool or post HH, so can watch in replayer

Re: I\'m going to do a LAG experiment
 

[ QUOTE ]
dbitel,

It seems that playing a LAG game has overcome your normal need to make money.

FWIW, I play a pretty decent LAG game when I only 1-table, so I can make a video of it (or you guys can sweat me). Let me know if anyone is interested, I'll do it soon.

[/ QUOTE ]
That would be good, and I am sure a lot of the other SSNL guys would love to see you in action.

Re: I\'m going to do a LAG experiment
 

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What a lot of people disagree with about the idea of showing a few bluffs, is that it will take away your overall ability to run a bluff. This is just a myth. ... As long as you continually pick your spots then you're fine.

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The same could be said by not showing them, and not taking the chance of people trying to pick them off because they think you bluff a lot. When you bluff you do not want a call. Seems obvious but that is exactly what you'll get if you keep showing them. Even if only twice.

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Once people see how strong you are they are either easier to bluff or they give you action.

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What does this mean? Strong as in good player? Or strong as in showing strong hands? If you mean the former, no bad player thinks another player is better than them and showing bluffs will make them try to pick them off more, only good it you never try again. If the latter, this will allow you to bluff without showing previous bluffs anyway.

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Good image? Big +EV.

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This I agree with but I think it can be done without ever showing your cards. Not that I think you should never, ever show. But almost never.

Re: I\'m going to do a LAG experiment
 

[ QUOTE ]
dbitel,

It seems that playing a LAG game has overcome your normal need to make money.

FWIW, I play a pretty decent LAG game when I only 1-table, so I can make a video of it (or you guys can sweat me). Let me know if anyone is interested, I'll do it soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

Getterdone.

And that is a hint at why LAG can be difficult. If you one-table, you can do all kinds of stuff.

Re: I\'m going to do a LAG experiment
 

Db,

I haven't read the responses, but I would like to remind you of something.

A GOOD lag player (there are plenty of bad ones) must rely heavily on his ability to read other players.

If you are not VERY confident in your hand reading skills, you are going to be in trouble.

Rgrds,

ness

Re: I\'m going to do a LAG experiment
 

[ QUOTE ]

By the way, link to a post from HSNL LAG player ...

Showing Bluffs

regards,

dardo

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I'll bet dollars to donuts that most beginners (IE: SSNL) will not be able to do this properly. You need to be a very good hand reader. Also, it won't work nearly as well at SSNL because most players play their cards and nothing else. Maybe at 100NL it will make more sense to try.

I agree with Isura that people want to play LAG for the sake of playing LAG. There is simply not much need for this at these levels unless for fun/amusement. Which I suspect this is. In that case carry on...

Re: I\'m going to do a LAG experiment
 

db, ive always been a loose player( ive never had a vp$ip under 27), which is why it took me so long to start winning at poker(almost 2 years [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]). I was playing too many hands without enough experience.

when im playing LAGish at(50 and 100nl), my play revolves around position. I try to be super tight when im going to be oop in a hand. But with position, im quite loose. It makes things so much easier. i cant emphasize that enough. Position is key for a lag.(most people say reading hands is key, and i agree with that, but being in position makes reading hands alot easier IMO)

As far as when to float/make plays, do it whenever you really sense pure weakness. if im in position, i will float cbets on suited boards/paired boards agains opponents who i know can fold. i try not to make a ton of plays oop simply because if they dont work, what do i do on the next street? it just puts me in situations where im not good enough to make a +ev move. hopefully after a few thousand hands ill get better in these spots.

As far as hand requirements, hey your a lag, you dont need hand requirements. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] just play the player, go with your reads, and have fun. gl.

Re: I\'m going to do a LAG experiment
 

Isura,

I have become a bit obssessed, I'll admit that, but its mainly just out of fustration at the lack of help i've had.

Also, please make the vid, I would love to watch and learn from it.

Ness,

I think my hand reading skills are pretty good

Re: I\'m going to do a LAG experiment
 

[ QUOTE ]
dbitel,

It seems that playing a LAG game has overcome your normal need to make money.

FWIW, I play a pretty decent LAG game when I only 1-table, so I can make a video of it (or you guys can sweat me). Let me know if anyone is interested, I'll do it soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

What would be even better is a LAG challenge. > 40 VPIP, > 25 PFR, > 2 AF. Any level, Video style. Highest PTBB/100 wins!

I'll donate a buy-in or two to the cause and let my true donk out. Anyone else up for it or dumb idea. Either way I may try it for kicks.

Re: I\'m going to do a LAG experiment
 

I'm not sure ... people are willing to "donate" their stacks more easily ...

Anyway, I see this just like an evolution. As far as you reach on your skills, you can play more hands, do more things ... etc, etc

So, it doesn't matter if you play SSNL, or HSNL, you just adapt the best to the situation and the players.

regards,

dardo

Re: I\'m going to do a LAG experiment
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
dbitel,

It seems that playing a LAG game has overcome your normal need to make money.

FWIW, I play a pretty decent LAG game when I only 1-table, so I can make a video of it (or you guys can sweat me). Let me know if anyone is interested, I'll do it soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

What would be even better is a LAG challenge. > 40 VPIP, > 25 PFR, > 2 AF. Any level, Video style. Highest PTBB/100 wins!

I'll donate a buy-in or two to the cause and let my true donk out. Anyone else up for it or dumb idea. Either way I may try it for kicks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I LOVE this idea