ATo Big Pot
 

No specific reads but Villains seem reasonable players for this limit. They aren't total donks but don't do things like FCP or jam a set.

Full Tilt Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $1/$2
8 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is MP1 with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
2 folds, <font color="#cc3333">Hero raises</font>, 3 folds, <font color="#cc3333">SB 3-bets</font>, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (9SB, 3 players)
<font color="#cc3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#cc3333">BB raises</font>, <font color="#cc3333">Hero ???

Re: ATo Big Pot
 

fold pf

Re: ATo Big Pot
 

i fold this right now. only thing you can hope for is that some1 is betting with a q and someone else is raising on a fd. but i think the vast majority of the time here you are dominated. your bd draws are weak and you cant be happy about your kicker. i think you are effectively behind 90% of PF 3 betting hands with this flop

edit:

this pot isnt big enough to merit calling with a marginal/easily dominated hand

Re: ATo Big Pot
 

:grunch:
I'm thinking fold preflop. I don't like the preflop raise w/ A,10 in this situation because this hand just isn't strong enough. I know the whole thing about the training wheels, but it seems you don't have super good reads on your opponents anyway. I think on the flop, I might reraise and see what happens, but there's a good chance you're beat. If they show more aggression, then you should fold. I think this hand is all about not getting in the situation in the first place. However, I'm curious to see what others have to say.

Re: ATo Big Pot
 

Whether to raise or fold A10o in EP preflop is a much debated topic.

So to the flop. I think I could begrudgingly find a flop here but Ill admit in can be harder when actually at the table.

I just cant see hero beating both the SB and the BB here and even if we are ahead here then we are likely to be subject a wide variety of redraws that beat us. We have few draws if we are behind and they are possibly tainted. The further we go into the hand the more obligated we may be to see a SD. There are no prizes for second place. I fold.

I'd be more worried about BB here and so at a guess Ill put him on 66 or AQo

Re: ATo Big Pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
fold pf

[/ QUOTE ]

There are 5 players to act behind us. This is a raise.

Re: ATo Big Pot
 

@OP: What's "FCP?"

[ QUOTE ]
fold pf

[/ QUOTE ]

This is insanely weak-tight. MP1 is not early position, it's a mid position. If AJo is a raise UTG in virtually any game, certainly we can raise ATo from mid position here.

Flop is interesting; SB is probably betting the flop no matter what he has, so the question is if BB would raise less than top pair. If the BB was the pf 3bettor, the SB donked into him and the BB raised again, I'd say we have to fold, but with the action as given BB could very well have a draw or worse A given that he just called from the BB. And we have position on both of our opponents, making it easier to get away on the turn if it turns out that hero's hand is no good.

If I'm continuing in the hand at all, it's by calling this and reevaluating on the turn. Our hand won't benefit much from a "protection" reraise and my estimation of whether we're ahead has a lot to do with how SB reacts to the flop raise.

Re: ATo Big Pot
 

I would fold the flop, I think it's a pretty big overlay to think we have the best hand nearly often enough as it's going to be expensive to see the river. If you're going to play, I would just cold call, you are not getting SB to fold a hand you beat, and keeping him around with KK or JJ to pad the pot is not a bad thing.

Re: ATo Big Pot
 

I think this is just a matter of estimating your outs. Given the preflop action I doubt your ace is good, which gives us something like 4-5 outs. I would say this is a fold.

Re: ATo Big Pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Given the preflop action I doubt your ace is good, which gives us something like 4-5 outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are a lot of legitimate 3bet hands that don't include an A.

Re: ATo Big Pot
 

EP I fold, MP I raise.

I fold this flop without thinking about it.

Re: ATo Big Pot
 

BB smooth calls 2, then raises the flop against BOTH preflop raisers...you're good here, like, never.

Re: ATo Big Pot
 

: toxic grunch :

Blimey.

I feel the correct thing to do is to step aside (fold). But whether I'd have the strength (or the correct strength of weakness) for that I don't know.

The pre-flop/ flop action leaves one a bit uncomfortable with holding ATo.

There just seems to be too many things that could have gone wrong by this point and few things that can go right; with you paying a lot to find out either way.

I might grunch differently if I knew what FCP meant [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I worry other posts will say you can't really fold this and that I'm once again coming out weak. It's just that I have a horrible feeling it will get capped if you call 2 cold.

Fold: Could easily be up against AKo or QQ.

Re: ATo Big Pot
 

G-runch:

Despite my hatred of A10o in anything earlier than the late position, I still raise this. With 4 players left to act, this is a situation to raise. When you get three bet it says "danger" to me, but I still call. On this flop, I check. My kicker is meh, and I've been three bet PF. It looks like you would have been raised and reraise anyway, so a fold on the flop is goot.

edit: upon reading responses, I have to say that a three bet PF doesn't neccessarily mean your Ace is no good. I just mean that with two other players in, one of whom cold called and then raised, it doesn't look positive to call/raise here.

Re: ATo Big Pot
 

Hero is three off the button. This PF raise is absolutely standard.

The question on the flop action is fold or 3-bet. The arguments for folding have been made. Anybody see any reason to 3-bet here?

Re: ATo Big Pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hero is three off the button. This PF raise is absolutely standard.

The question on the flop action is fold or 3-bet. The arguments for folding have been made. Anybody see any reason to 3-bet here?

[/ QUOTE ]

I personally think fold&gt;cold call&gt;3-bet

Re: ATo Big Pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
fold pf

[/ QUOTE ]

8 handed, after a couple folds, raise it up.

Re: ATo Big Pot
 

:grunch:

I'm gonna play ATo in MP, but I'm not going to raise with it -- it's not that good. &lt;-- (Edited below)

Post flop, when I have the SB betting out of position (not to mention that he raised pre-flop) and an early player raising the SB's bet (knowing of course that the SB raised pre-flop), I'm getting out of this hand on the flop. WAY too much chance someone has AT LEAST an Ace with better kicker.

(Now I'll read what everyone else said...if you don't see this edited in a few minutes, I stand by it.)

After reading others' posts, I wouldn't change anything. But after simply thinking about it a little more, depending on the type of table I'm at, I might raise pre-flop as well. It would depend. I checked my favorite pre-flop charts, and Hilger calls for raising in MP if first in. Miller just has you calling. So it seems either is reasonable. Again, it would probably depend on my mood and how I felt about the table type (loose vs. tight / weak vs. aggressive)

Edited again: doh! If I would pay more attention...since there's only 8 players and not 10, yes, I'd raise pre-flop. I'd still fold post-flop.

Re: ATo Big Pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Given the preflop action I doubt your ace is good, which gives us something like 4-5 outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are a lot of legitimate 3bet hands that don't include an A.

[/ QUOTE ]

But do the owners of those hands then bet out in 1st position when there's an Ace on the flop with 2 people behind him (perhaps, as a continuation bet, but I'd say it's 50/50) or do they then raise a bet on the flop with an Ace on board (as the BB did)?

It could happen, but given the pot size, I'd just fold and not risk it. Ain't worth it.

Re: ATo Big Pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm gonna play ATo in MP, but I'm not going to raise with it -- it's not that good. &lt;-- (Edited below)

Edited again: doh! If I would pay more attention...since there's only 8 players and not 10, yes, I'd raise pre-flop. I'd still fold post-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you open an unopened pot? I try to let my hand deceide, the earlier I am I'll tend to raise with broadway cards, and limp with smaller suited connectors, basically if I have a hand like 78s that plays well multiway I'll limp (to encourage other limpers to make me donations), if I have case in point ATo I'll raise to drive away most hands.

The later my position the more I'll tend to raise with everything (and sometimes anything) as a steal.

Here I'd open with the raise too, and call it 1 bet back to me. I hate that flop, hate the action to me. Easy lay down.

Re: ATo Big Pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hero is three off the button. This PF raise is absolutely standard.

The question on the flop action is fold or 3-bet. The arguments for folding have been made. Anybody see any reason to 3-bet here?

[/ QUOTE ]

I can imagine cold calling here as a stretch, but I guess if you had a good read your hand was goot you could three bet...i wouldn't make it a permanent part of my game though. I really would like to hear a good argument for it, it would be iinteresting.

Re: ATo Big Pot
 

*Grunch*

I fold here, although I may be in the minority. You're probably dominated by either the SB or the BB here, drawing to only a few outs. Staying in to see the showdown will be too expensive IMO.

Re: ATo Big Pot
 

I call this PF, but no way am I folding it in MP1.

I probably fold the flop, but a cold-call here isn't unreasonable. IMO, this is a case of reverse implied odds. Chances are we're going to be putting in quite a few BBs to stay in the hand, and whether we're in the lead here is prety close to a coin-flip, especially with no real reads. I fold, sit back and watch this hand play out, then use the info later in the session when things are bit more +EV.

jkd

Re: ATo Big Pot
 

I think you're done with this hand. You don't know what SB is going to here so I don't think you can call. It was a nice attempt to raise preflop, but let it go now.

Re: ATo Big Pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
I call this PF, but no way am I folding it in MP1.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I probably fold the flop, but a cold-call here isn't unreasonable.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ew. limping w/ this PF and cold calling this flop are pretty weak IMO.

Re: ATo Big Pot
 

ATo and Big Pot are generally mutually exclusive terms.

I think I can let this go when it is two to me on the flop, and all I have in terms of redraws is 2 backdoor draws one of which is very weak.