Was Hachem being unethical?
 

At the final table of Bally's wsop circuit event when there were 10 players left and we were waiting for 1 more to drop to end the day Hachem did something that I disagree with. It isn't against the rules but in my opinion it could be considered unethical by many.

On the last hand of the day with the blinds at 2k-4k with a 500 ante Max Pescatori moves all in in the hijack for 22,500 chips. Joe Hachem is next to act and announces all in. I don't know his exact chip count but I think it was over 150,000. Lee Watkinson is next to act and goes into the tank. He clearly has a good hand and is deciding whether he wants to put the tournament on the line as it will be all in for him. After some time Hachem turns to Watkinson and says "I know what you have."
Watkinson replies "You know what I have? OK tell me what I have."
Hachem says "There are other players behind you I can't say yet but before the cards are turned over I'll tell you what you have."
Watkinson keeps deliberating. Hachem is figiting and to me it was clear he wanted Watkinson not only to fold but was making it clear he had Watkinson beat and that he would be making a mistake to call. After some more time Hachem says to Watkinson "You should have folded a long time ago."

Watkinson folds and Minh Ly moves in his approximately 50k in the small blind immediately. I fold the big blind and the hands are turned up with Pescatori holding A4o, Hachem KK, and Minh Ly JJ. Watkinson claims to have folded QQ and Hachem says something like "Of course I knew you had QQ."

Regardless of whether Watkinson would have called I'm sure he was strongly influenced by Hachem to fold. After the hand Hachem told me he didn't want Watkinson to call. I was shocked and told him he of course wanted watkinson to call. He claims he was worried about going against so many hands and having to dodge alot of cards.

An unfortunate part of the situation is that Minh Ly isn't exaclty a master of the english language and couldn't have understood the full implications of what Hachem was saying. Ly is one of the best players in the world and I'm almost positive he would have folded if he could have completely understood what Hachem was saying.

Clearly Harrah's and the WSOP doesn't think Hachem did anything wrong and no one else seemed to think so either.

As far as I can tell Hachem is a very nice and personable guy and a good NL tournament player. He clearly didn't think he was doing anything wrong or unethical at the time.

What do you guys think?

Re: Was Hachem being unethical?
 

Yes, the old "get your opponents to fold when you're an 4:1 favorite" angle. What a cheater.

Re: Was Hachem being unethical?
 

Hmmmm... That could also be construed as him trying really hard to get a call.

Re: Was Hachem being unethical?
 

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An unfortunate part of the situation is that Minh Ly isn't exaclty a master of the english language and couldn't have understood the full implications of what Hachem was saying. Ly is one of the best players in the world and I'm almost positive he would have folded if he could have completely understood what Hachem was saying.

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The man speaks with a very thick accent, but he knows English.
I've seen him in a number of interviews, he doesn't require a translator or anything.

Moreover, despite the fact that it's not IMO relevant to this situation (in so far as I believe Minh knew what was being said), a man with his table experience can probably decipher with surprising accuracy, just by watching the players, exactly what was going on even if he didn't know what was being said.

Re: Was Hachem being unethical?
 

It's not Joe Hachem's fault that a player at the table doesn't speak his language well.

Re: Was Hachem being unethical?
 

So it's ok that he told Lee watkinson to fold but not Minh Ly?
By the way, if Watkinson calls Hachem is not a 4 to 1 favorite.

Re: Was Hachem being unethical?
 

No. English only at the table. Tough luck.

Re: Was Hachem being unethical?
 

Forgetting about Ly for a moment, is it ok for me to tell another player I have them beat when I actually do, essentially helping them save chips. And is it ok for me to tell them they have me beat when they do, essentially giving them chips.

Re: Was Hachem being unethical?
 

I don't see anything wrong with it. English only at the table, right? As far as what was actually said, don't see a problem.

ScottieK

Re: Was Hachem being unethical?
 

One might think that but I'm 99.9999% he wanted Watkinson to fold.

Re: Was Hachem being unethical?
 

There's no rule about who you have to talk to at the poker table and who you don't.

Re: Was Hachem being unethical?
 

I said in my original post that what he did is not against the rules. My question is was it unethical. The way swapping large percentages is unethical.

(Edited to take out an example that acutally is against the rules)

Re: Was Hachem being unethical?
 

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I said in my original post that what he did is not against the rules. My question is was it unethical. The way swapping large percentages is unethical.


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I'd say it was unethical if he was saying what he said specifically because Watkinson was his opponent. He may just have not wanted a call, no matter who it was.

Re: Was Hachem being unethical?
 

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Forgetting about Ly for a moment, is it ok for me to tell another player I have them beat when I actually do, essentially helping them save chips. And is it ok for me to tell them they have me beat when they do, essentially giving them chips.

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it's fine. Who cares if you wanna save your opponent his money.

Re: Was Hachem being unethical?
 

The way he was saying it, it seemed almost like he was criticizing a friend who was about to make a bad call. His tone was something like: Come on I obviously have you beat, are you really gonna make a horrible call??

I can't say for sure he wouldn't have tried to get anyone else to fold though.

Re: Was Hachem being unethical?
 

I care because I don't think that's poker and I came there to play poker.

Re: Was Hachem being unethical?
 

Borderline. He kept it vague, and even though he happened to induce a fold from a worse hand in this instance, in other instances the exact same talk will induce folds from better hands or calls from a worse hands, which would make it entirely fair game.

My hunch is he wanted to look desperate and weak, it backfired, and the "having to dodge alot of cards" spiel was a face-saving measure. You really think he wanted QQ out? Really?

Re: Was Hachem being unethical?
 

At this moment there is almost no doubt in my mind. Hachem wanted him to fold. For sure he wanted him to fold becuase he was worried about losing the pot but there may have been something of helping a friend out, that I'm not sure about I'm not even sure they are friends.

Re: Was Hachem being unethical?
 

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So it's ok that he told Lee watkinson to fold but not Minh Ly?
By the way, if Watkinson calls Hachem is not a 4 to 1 favorite.

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You said Minh had 50k chips to Hachem's 150k. So, depending on Watkinson's stack, yes, I may have absolutely no problem with it.

FWIW, if you were to search out and read my posts on these types of topics in the past, I believe you'd consider me to be among the most vocal critics of much of the unethical, but technically legal, behavior that goes on in poker. I am just not convinced yet that what you describe falls into that category.

Re: Was Hachem being unethical?
 

I don't see anything wrong what Hachem did. Table-talk is part of the game, and I think Hachem was smart if he wanted to get Watkinson fold as he did. All the players use talk as part of strategy to get information from other players or trying to have an influence on their play.

Re: Was Hachem being unethical?
 

This is not unethical.

First of all he could be lying. Second of all he could be wrong about what is Watkinson holds.

If you eliminate talking, then the game should be played solely online.

Re: Was Hachem being unethical?
 

well you're probably the only person who will probably know. Sometimes it's the tone, the way he stresses certain words etc. No one here was there and it's hard for people to understand exactly what you're getting at. Especially when it's so ambiguous that he somehow doesn't want a call in that spot with KK?

Re: Was Hachem being unethical?
 

Watkinson had over 100k.
If what Hachem did is ok then it's ok for me to tell a friend who is sitting at my table to fold when I have them beat and I know I have them beat and they know I wouldn't lie to them. The whole table can here me thats fine, my friend will still be able to lay down his QQ to my KK, which drastically hurts the EV of the other players at the table because a player who was supposed to go broke and move them up the prize pool didn't.

Re: Was Hachem being unethical?
 

There's no problem with talking. And I admit it's not too bad if the players involved are essentially strangers and won't know for sure if the guys lying or not.

However, it could be a tremendous problem if the players ivolved know eachother well and know you wouldn't lie to them. At that point IMO it becomes very close to collusion.

Re: Was Hachem being unethical?
 

Assuming Hachem really wanted him to fold (questionable), isn't it much more likely he thought Watkinson had AK?

Re: Was Hachem being unethical?
 

We really shouldn't get into a stategy discussion here as that isn't the issue but AK would have been an easy fold for Watkinson. He never would have taken all the time he did to consider calling.

Re: Was Hachem being unethical?
 

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However, it could be a tremendous problem if the players ivolved know eachother well and know you wouldn't lie to them. At that point IMO it becomes very close to collusion.

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Yes, certainly if that's the case.

Re: Was Hachem being unethical?
 

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Watkinson had over 100k.
If what Hachem did is ok then it's ok for me to tell a friend who is sitting at my table to fold when I have them beat and I know I have them beat and they know I wouldn't lie to them. The whole table can here me thats fine, my friend will still be able to lay down his QQ to my KK, which drastically hurts the EV of the other players at the table because a player who was supposed to go broke and move them up the prize pool didn't.

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OK. Here's my problem.

There are certain spots where friends who discuss strategy can put their friend-opponents on specific hands that are 100% certain, only because of their prior strategy discussions. Perhaps Hachem and Lee discussed the night before when talking strategy - "Minh Ly will call anything once he is in BB at 50k or less, so I will 100% push ONLY with KK and AA in that spot" (please completely disregard strategic correctness of that). Now, this situation arises, Hachem pushes. Without a word, Lee now KNOWS his QQ is no good.

This of course is a very contrived scenario, but I think you can understand what I'm getting at. Regular opponents know more about how each other play than unknown opponents. Friends who discuss strategy know more about how each other play than regular opponents.

In the situation that you described, I'm much more worried about a guy like Hachem giving Lee (I have no idea if they know each other or whatever) a subtle nod to keep him from going broke as opposed to making these types of comments that everyone at the table is equally able to benefit from (specifically, Minh can make a big laydown if he also believes Hachem).

Re: Was Hachem being unethical?
 

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In the situation that you described, I'm much more worried about a guy like Hachem giving Lee (I have no idea if they know each other or whatever) a subtle nod to keep him from going broke as opposed to making these types of comments that everyone at the table is equally able to benefit from (specifically, Minh can make a big laydown if he also believes Hachem).

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As far as the players at the table besides Minh Ly, Lee Watkinson, and myself are concerned, the talk might as well be a nod because they can't benefit from the information.

In fact, if Watkinson was talked into a fold when he would have actually called then the EV of the rest of the players was significantly decreased. This in and of itself of course is nothing wrong as lots of things can increase or reduce their EV. But something with this whole situation doesn't sit right with me. I really wish some of you could see it and I hope they show it on tv though thats doubtful because it was before the actual "final table" of 9 players. Being there and watching it happen, to me it just looked like Hachem saved Watkinson from losing his chips. That shouldn't be part of poker.

Re: Was Hachem being unethical?
 

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After some time Hachem turns to Watkinson and says "I know what you have."
Watkinson replies "You know what I have? OK tell me what I have."
Hachem says "There are other players behind you I can't say yet but before the cards are turned over I'll tell you what you have."

Watkinson claims to have folded QQ and Hachem says something like "Of course I knew you had QQ."

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...

i don't see any reason to believe that Hacham actually knew what Watkinson's hand was in this spot. he didn't, after all, tell him before the cards were turned up or even before Lee told him what he had himself.

if i were a totally impartial observer of this hand, i'd see him angling about as hard as he could for more callers.

the problem that arrises for Minh is that say Hacham actually does know two hands at the table, his (AK) and Lee's (AQ) then he could be telling Lee the truth but not be able to advise Minh properly before seeing his cards. In fact, there's only a couple hands (duh) that his JJ isn't in great shape against, especially considering the size of the pot yadda yadda.

so yeah, i'm unconvinced that a) Hacham knew anything more than his own cards b) anything shitey went down here.

c

Re: Was Hachem being unethical?
 

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As far as the players at the table besides Minh Ly, Lee Watkinson, and myself are concerned, the talk might as well be a nod because they can't benefit from the information.

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Well, in this spot. I meant in a more general fashion, if Hachem is talking to Lee (or anyone) in this manner, the other players involved in the different hands will all have opportunities to take advantage of this information. I don't want to belabor this point, though, I obviously understand your concern.

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But something with this whole situation doesn't sit right with me. I really wish some of you could see it

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Yeah, that of course is the issue here. I mean, I have no reason to disbelieve anything you are saying. However, maybe Lee and Hachem are acquaintances but not friends? If that's the case, maybe Hachem was going one level up and trying to talk Lee into a call in a spot where the raise itself was going to get him to fold QQ? If Lee had called, your read on the whole situation is quite different, right? Again, impossible to speak intelligently on this specific spot without being there.

As for the saving chips comment, that's a pretty serious accusation. I mean, you are still at 10 players in a very top-heavy structure. How much is Hachem costing himself by getting Lee to fold?

I think it comes down to this simple question.

If you were in Lee's spot, would Hachem want you to do the same thing as he wants Lee to do?

If the answer is yes, then I have no problem w/ Hachem doing anything possible to get his desired result.

If the answer is no, he wants Lee to fold and stay alive, but wants you to call and get your chips in bad, well then it seems both unethical and stupid on Hachem's part. In fact, it would even perhaps imply that he and Lee have some other reason to not want each other knocked out.

Re: Was Hachem being unethical?
 

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if i were a totally impartial observer of this hand, i'd see him angling about as hard as he could for more callers.

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If you were there to see it happen you would be sure it was the opposite. I know I can't really back that up, but I was there and I'm sure for what that's worth.

Re: Was Hachem being unethical?
 

There are always subtle nuances that are involved in poker that are not conveyable through pen and paper (or in this case an internet forum.) Hachem very well could have been baiting Watkinson for a call here through higher level thinking. Psychological warfare sure is fun.

Re: Was Hachem being unethical?
 

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I said in my original post that what he did is not against the rules. My question is was it unethical. The way swapping large percentages is unethical.

(Edited to take out an example that acutally is against the rules)

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Actually, it might be against the rules depending upon what rules they are using and how strictly they are interpreting them. But Rule 37 of the TDA states:

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Verbally disclosing the contents of your hand or advising a player how to play a hand may result in a penalty.

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Clearly, Hachem did advise another player how to play a hand. But given that there is a TD right there I think he should have stepped in and reminded the players that they cannot disuss their hand or advise others what to do. But it would have to be an outright abuse of the rules for a player to be penalized on a final table of an event like this.

Re: Was Hachem being unethical?
 

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Hmmmm... That could also be construed as him trying really hard to get a call.

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I agree

Re: Was Hachem being unethical?
 

Let's just say you are right....
If you were able to figure out that hachem was really strong, and that he was making lee fold a very good hand, then why couldn't Minh do the same, and fold his hand?

Re: Was Hachem being unethical?
 

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Forgetting about Ly for a moment, is it ok for me to tell another player I have them beat when I actually do, essentially helping them save chips. And is it ok for me to tell them they have me beat when they do, essentially giving them chips.

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The way I see it, it's kind of a reverse bluff, or reverse psycology. It's not like he said I have a pair of cowboys, fold so I can bust the shorty. Besides, he really wants the call! Thats what you should consider.

Re: Was Hachem being unethical?
 

I would assume he was telling Watkinson he didn't want to call to encourage Watkinson and others to call. They might interpret it as "strong means weak".

I doubt very much that Watkinson folded QQ in this situation.

Re: Was Hachem being unethical?
 

Because Minh doesn't speak english very well. He doesn't understand alot of the subtleties needed to accurately interprety what Hachem was implying with his statements+body language.

Re: Was Hachem being unethical?
 

Unethical is what Hasan Habib did with Tuan Lee; Hachem talk is hardly unethical and it's not even close.