First time tempted to fold KK preflop.
 

Have a lot of hands on villain...
over 1600 hands, he 7/0/0.23

First time I ever considered folding KK preflop...I was definately tempted. Anyone else think that there is no other hand he does this with?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Hero ($50)
UTG ($14.75)
UTG+1 ($65.27)
UTG+2 ($83.32)
MP1 ($48.75)
MP2 ($62.85)
MP3 ($53.04)
CO ($47.20)
Button ($90.15)
SB ($49.70)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
<font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, CO calls $0.50, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB (poster) completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $2.5</font>, CO calls $46.70 (All-In), SB folds, Hero calls $44.20.

Flop: ($94.90) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Turn: ($94.90) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

River: ($94.90) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $94.90

Re: First time tempted to fold KK preflop.
 

Ive been tempted. Let me just say Im glad I never did, in spite of having the right read a few of those times.

Re: First time tempted to fold KK preflop.
 

i called an all-in pf tonight with QQ and ran into AA (villian mostly unknown here so i couldn't go on stats). it happens, just make a note for next time.

wait, is he open-limping with AA?

Re: First time tempted to fold KK preflop.
 

AK seems a lot more likely than AA with this kind of stupid move.

Re: First time tempted to fold KK preflop.
 

[ QUOTE ]
i called an all-in pf tonight with QQ and ran into AA (villian mostly unknown here so i couldn't go on stats). it happens, just make a note for next time.

wait, is he open-limping with AA?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure your situation really compares...mine is completely read based. Nothing about my hand is about complaining when someone has AA when I have a big hand...its purely based on this guy never raising preflop, and only playing 7% of hands.

Re: First time tempted to fold KK preflop.
 

[ QUOTE ]
AK seems a lot more likely than AA with this kind of stupid move.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? Against a guy who has not raised preflop in over 1500 hands? I just can't imagine a guy who is willing to only play 7% of hands is willing to recklessly throw all his chips into the middle preflop with anything other than AA...

Re: First time tempted to fold KK preflop.
 

We almost went an entire day without a "Should I Fold KK Preflop?" thread. You posted this just in time.

Re: First time tempted to fold KK preflop.
 

Wow, 1600 hands, 7/0/.23? That IS crazy tight. The only thing is, do you have a read of HOW he plays the few hands he does play?

Re: First time tempted to fold KK preflop.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, 1600 hands, 7/0/.23? That IS crazy tight. The only thing is, do you have a read of HOW he plays the few hands he does play?

[/ QUOTE ]

There was a guy from limit days who I had a substantial amount of hands, stats: 10/0/0. If that guy ever raised preflop Id probably crap pants, and cry for mommy, and wonder how the [censored] he got 3 aces in his hand preflop.

Re: First time tempted to fold KK preflop.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, 1600 hands, 7/0/.23? That IS crazy tight. The only thing is, do you have a read of HOW he plays the few hands he does play?

[/ QUOTE ]

No read at all, other than he has shown 0 aggression ever...so hard for me not to put aggression squarely on the nuts. But, we are not allowed to fold KK preflop on this forum.

Re: First time tempted to fold KK preflop.
 

Sorry, I missed the pt stats. The limp-reraise all in almost seems like he is "nut-peddling" except all preflop.

You have 1600 hands of him. What does he showdown? How many times do you have him showing down AA? Was there a raise?

That is just strange.

Re: First time tempted to fold KK preflop.
 

no doubt strange...

Re: First time tempted to fold KK preflop.
 

[ QUOTE ]
We almost went an entire day without a "Should I Fold KK Preflop?" thread. You posted this just in time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh-Oh...you misread my post completely...we still need that thread since this thread doesn't ask that question anywhere!!!! ACK!!!

I appreciate the effort of trying to slam someone else..but unfortunately you failed miserably...stick to posting meaningful things, trolling is not for you.

Re: First time tempted to fold KK preflop.
 

[ QUOTE ]
AK seems a lot more likely than AA with this kind of stupid move.

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

Re: First time tempted to fold KK preflop.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
AK seems a lot more likely than AA with this kind of stupid move.

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll be honest, the open limp-raise from the CO or Button always [censored] confuses the [censored] out of me.

Re: First time tempted to fold KK preflop.
 

slightly less confusing when they are 7VPIP with 0PFR over 1600 hands...at least I thought so.

Re: First time tempted to fold KK preflop.
 

* grunch *

I fold here [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

Re: First time tempted to fold KK preflop.
 

BTW how'd you get a * ?

Re: First time tempted to fold KK preflop.
 

Ok, I am a nebie here; however, I read an article a few months back. In the article, a poker player in Las Vegas tried a little experiment. He only played AA or AK in no limit games for one year. Folded all other hands. When he got AA or AK, he went all in. He had a net profit at the end of the year. Something like 17 dollars an hour.(I dont know what level he was playing at.) Could the villian be doing the same thing here. Heck, with that strategy, I could play ten tables at a time. No thought process required.

Re: First time tempted to fold KK preflop.
 

Had a similar situation some months ago. Villain´s stats showed he hadn´t played one single hand in 200 hands I had on him. Then I get KK on button, he raises UTG, I reraise and he pushes. Easy fold there. In this case he has gone for the limp-reraise all-in and I can guarantee you he has the goods here. Then again, you wouldn´t have made this post unless you wanted to prove donks do this with AK-TT?

Re: First time tempted to fold KK preflop.
 

This is one of the very few spots where I fold KK preflop. I just can't see what hands he makes this play with.

Re: First time tempted to fold KK preflop.
 

I fold, and then I look for another table, because this guy is just taking up space; you'll never make any money off him.

That pfr number is just scary, so I have two questions:

With 1600 hands, rounding error now matters, so what's the full number? It just can't be 0.00%. Even if it's just 0.1%, that means he raised TWO hands in 1600. And if it's 0.4%, that pretty much means he raises his bullets and nothing else, since they come in about 0.45% of the time.

PT question: I had always assumed that a limp-reraise preflop would be counted for one's pfr%, but now I'm not so sure. If this guy always limp-reraises, rather than open raising, and if by some chance PT only counts an *open* raise for pfr%, then this guy may have successfully disguised his true preflop raising frequency.

I know what I would like PT to do in this regard. Does anyone know for sure what it actually does? Does a lrr count? If no one does know I'll ask PT support.

Re: First time tempted to fold KK preflop.
 

I can't believe I am typing this, but it looks like a fold. A 7/0 isn't raising anything but AA. His range is not wide at all, it is a single hand. This is the one exception in a thousand that we always mention in the "The Big Bad 50/30/3 LAG just 3-bet All-in, Should I Fold KK" threads that are more the norm.

I honestly can't say whether I would actually fold here (hell I probably call out of curiosity), but this would be the type of villain where I would have to think long and hard before calling.

Re: First time tempted to fold KK preflop.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I fold, and then I look for another table, because this guy is just taking up space; you'll never make any money off him.

That pfr number is just scary...

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree about folding here in this case with the information provided by OP. Against this particular villan, I think it is -EV to call his all-in. However, I would keep him around and steel his blnds every chance you get, at least until you got your $2.50 back. Also, you can shorten the table and not worry about this persons play. BTW, how long would it take you to get your $47 back from this guy?

Re: First time tempted to fold KK preflop.
 

If this guy doesnt show AA then today is the day you wipe his stats from your datababse - cause he just read a book. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Thing is, with exactly 0 raises on record it means that he doesn't normally do this with AA. This guy is the very imbodiement of "risk averse". Maybe he figures that after 1600 hands with no raises there isn't a sane peron alive who will call when he pushes preflop.

No offence [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: First time tempted to fold KK preflop.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I can't believe I am typing this, but it looks like a fold. A 7/0 isn't raising anything but AA. His range is not wide at all, it is a single hand. This is the one exception in a thousand that we always mention in the "The Big Bad 50/30/3 LAG just 3-bet All-in, Should I Fold KK" threads that are more the norm.

I honestly can't say whether I would actually fold here (hell I probably call out of curiosity), but this would be the type of villain where I would have to think long and hard before calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh. I folded KK for the first time preflop yesterday. It was at 1/2 though, and I had an obvious read. BTW, a short-stack raised, I reraised, and he instapushed. I was okay to fold because I got to see his hand anyways. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] He offcourse had AA.

Re: First time tempted to fold KK preflop.
 

Ok, so it is now ok for me to fold KK preflop. Everything I have read on this forum made it so I would never do it...even when all evidence (and this is as much evidence as you could ever ask for) points to folding.

I won't do it often...heck, I may never do it again, but if this type of player does this to me again...I'll feel comfortable laying it down.

He did have AA of course...but I reloaded and made back about 3/5 of it on this table. This was actually one of my best days ever overall, and this was one of the few hands that cost me a lot...was just curious what others thought.

Re: First time tempted to fold KK preflop.
 

[ QUOTE ]
BTW how'd you get a * ?

[/ QUOTE ]

OOT...scary place.

so you think KK is foldable preflop then? I guess I missed where there was an exception to the rule, because I really wanted to fold this. At least I know for next time...although its not like you run into this situation everyday...week..month?

Re: First time tempted to fold KK preflop.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Then again, you wouldn´t have made this post unless you wanted to prove donks do this with AK-TT?

[/ QUOTE ]

That seems like the logic of many posts like this on here. I, however, did in fact run into exactly what the stats said I would run into. If this exact situation ever comes up...I'll definately remember it, and apply it.

Re: First time tempted to fold KK preflop.
 

very interesting...and something I hadn't considered. Perhaps limp-re-raising is a very common move for him. Well that brings a whole new level of confusion. If he does lrr a majority of time that he plays his 7% of hands, then I would feel a lot more confident calling here...I think.

Re: First time tempted to fold KK preflop.
 

I was quite convinced he held AA...I just didn't think I was "allowed" for fold KK preflop. From this thread, I now know otherwise.

Re: First time tempted to fold KK preflop.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was quite convinced he held AA...I just didn't think I was "allowed" for fold KK preflop. From this thread, I now know otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh. I dont like preflop folding KK, believe me. I seen too much crap shown down. That said, Ive yet to encounter a nit of this magnitude playing NL. Treat this as exactly what it is, a corner case.

Re: First time tempted to fold KK preflop.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I was quite convinced he held AA...I just didn't think I was "allowed" for fold KK preflop. From this thread, I now know otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh. I dont like preflop folding KK, believe me. I seen too much crap shown down. That said, Ive yet to encounter a nit of this magnitude playing NL. Treat this as exactly what it is, a corner case.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed...I may never run into this type of situation again...but if I do, I won't lose a buyin next time.

Re: First time tempted to fold KK preflop.
 

I have never seen a 7/0 over 1600 hands at any of my tables (obviously they are not on my buddy list). This hand is the exception to the rule. I don't recall seeing anything this compelling ever posted before. A 7/0 is only playing pp and AK. When he pushes it's AA and nothing else. Incorrectly folding KK against this particular villain would be a very small mistake given your read and the PT stats to back it up.

Re: First time tempted to fold KK preflop.
 

So, in other words, it would have helped if I had known this beforehand.

Re: First time tempted to fold KK preflop.
 

[ QUOTE ]
So, in other words, it would have helped if I had known this beforehand.

[/ QUOTE ]

YES! (Don't you have PA HUD? If not, it would have paid for itself on that hand alone.)

Against an unknown or normal player, it is a call every time.

Re: First time tempted to fold KK preflop.
 

There is a time and place for folding kings preflop... do you usually do it? no folding them is usually a big NO.

but if there is strong evidence in the favor of folding, then go with it and fold.

When tightnights who never raise and only play 7% of their hands actually RAISE all in then it is going to be a tough call with KK.

Re: First time tempted to fold KK preflop.
 

This fold is quite easy IMO.

Anyway, did we ever figure out whether or not PT doesn't count limp-reraises in PFR?

Re: First time tempted to fold KK preflop.
 

fold pf please

Re: First time tempted to fold KK preflop.
 

I definately have PAHUD..and this is why I was tempted to fold...but then I remembered back on the vast number of posts in this very forum that chastised anyone for even considering folding KK preflop.