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-   -   Advice f/ a MHNL'er Post #3 (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=624)

whitelime 11-17-2005 11:27 AM

Advice f/ a MHNL\'er Post #3
 
Hi,

Sorry it took me so long to get this one out. I've been busy lately, but a bunch of you bombarded me w/ PM's so here goes:

The first two posts focused specifically on poker strategy while this one will deal with profitability. Here are a few specific ways to improve your profitability (roughly in order of importance)

1) Game Selection: This is by far the most important thing you can do to improve your winrate. If your game selection consists solely of putting yourself on the waitlists of the tables with the biggest avg pots/highest% to the flop, your game selection sucks.

First, think about how important game selection is. At small stakes, if you are a good player, chances are there might be 4 or 5 tables out of 100 that you are unable to sustain a positive winrate. However, there is a big difference between winning 2BB/100 on a certain table as opposed to 15BB/100. Think about the times where you sat down with a fish on your table playing 70-100% of his hands. How quickly on average does he go broke? 30 hands? 50 hands? 70 hands? If you are on his table, sometimes you'll be the one taking his stack, sometimes you won't. However, the bottom line is, on average you will take x% of that player's stack. If you follow most of the following advice, x will be around 30%. Depending on how much he bought in for, this may average out to around 9-12BB's. If we take a conservative estimate and say he lasts 70 hands, that's a ridiculous 9-12BB/HR raise on your winrate.

I don't think there are many doubters to the fact that game selection is important so I won't spend much more time on it. Rather, let's move on to how you go about picking good games....

2) Identifying Fish

If you are to exercise good game selection, obviously you have to know what a good game is. Since most of you are probably multitablers, the easiest way to do it is to use PokerTracker and an add-on which superimposes everyone's stats onto the table. When you aren't playing, you should leave your computer on and datamine. Within a few days you can easily recognize the regular, winning players, and the regular, losing players.

Be warned that you shouldn't automatically assume that because a certain player's VPIP is over 30, he is a fish. There is a wide range of styles with which people can play profitably. Believe it or not, there are 50/20's who are winning players at 5/10NL and 10/20NL. However, like most things, you are playing the numbers game. Chances are that a player with a VPIP of 50 is much more likely to be a loser than a player with a VPIP of 15.

The next way to identify the fish is to observe how they play particular hands. TAKE NOTES. When you see someone check-call the KQ4 flop OOP w/ A7o, no draws, you can be pretty sure that he is a losing player. It's important that you note specifics of how the weak player plays, and ways for you to exploit that. For example, don't write "donkey" as your note. Sure this tells you he sucks, but what good is that if you are unsure of how to exploit it. Instead, write "calling station". Now you know not to bluff him. Or write "doesn't extract proper value from strong hands". Now you know that you should just check-call him down with your top pair type hand. Or write "fires three barrels with overcards". Now you know to just check-call him down to the river.

Once you are able to identify the fish, you need to learn how to take advantage of them.

3) Play more hands with the fish and less with the sharks

This should be obvious, but it is amazing how many players play on complete auto-pilot and disregard for who they are playing the hand against.

Here's an example. Standard starting stacks. You have 55 in the SB. Solid player raises 4-5x from middle position. All folds around to you. A lot of players will call and take a flop to try and flop a set. However, this is incorrect for a number of reasons.

First of all, a solid player's opening range is going to be such that every time you flop your set, he will not necessarily have a strong enough hand to pay you off. Say he raises KQ and the flop comes J75. You aren't going to win much off him. Remember, that you have to plan on getting 50 big blinds worth of his stack in the middle just to BREAK EVEN on your small pocket pair.

Next, because this player is good, there's no guarantee that he will even go broke with an overpair or top pair. Maybe a scare card hits on the turn to kill your action. Maybe he reads your hand well and can get away quickly.

The bottom line is that speculative hands fluctuate in value depending on the player you are playing them against.

Here is another example. Very bad player minraises UTG. One caller. You have 46s on the button. Standard stack sizes. You should be seeing a flop here every single time. Playing 46s profitably against a very bad player in this situation should be pretty easy if you know what his leaks are and how to properly exploit them.

Other than widening your range of hands you will play against a weak player, how else can you increase the number of hands you play against him...

4) Learn to play short-handed

This is probably one of the biggest fears of a lot of small stakes full ring players. I know when I first started out, I was scared to death of SH play. Now, I'd have to play postflop and not just win exclusively on the strength of solid starting hands. However, I can honestly say that after 2 or 3 days of playing 6 MAX, my winrate was significantly higher than what i was earning at full ring. This isn't because I improved my postflop play that quickly but rather because there are more fish on the 6 MAX tables, and I am now playing more hands against each fish.

I think that every player takes a progression throughout their poker careers from full ring to 6 max, to 3 handed and HU play. The fewer the number of players, the more potential the game has for profitability. The reasons for this are fairly obvious.

5) Seat Selection Issues

It is often argued whether it is better to sit to the left of the players who play well, or the players who play poorly. The overwhelmingly correct answer is the players who play poorly. Think about it. Not only are you now able to isolate against that player at will, but now when you raise, you don't risk getting 4 callers behind you. Even if once in a while you have to play a hand out of position against a tough player, you should be playing 4-5 times as many hands against the weaker player. If a seat to the direct left of a loose, weak player opens up, CHANGE YOUR SEAT.

Now what happens if you aren't able to move to the left of the weaker player. Let's say you are to his direct right.

This is what is going to happen. You are going to have to significantly tighten up your preflop raising. You can't open JTo anymore because the loose player will call, and this will entice others after him to follow. Who wants to play a 4 handed pot out of position with hands like that? Furthermore, every time you are in a pot against the player you are trying to play as many pots with as possible, you are out of position. You'll have to control your continuation betting because that player is probably a calling station. The bottom line is that because that player is so bad, the game will still be profitable. However, if possible, you should definitely look for another table where you can get more favorable seating.

6) Psychology

How psychology applies to poker is something a lot of people don't properly understand.
One of the important aspects of any hand is how your opponent perceives you. Unless you have a long history with the opponent, this usually involves how you've been playing for the past 40-50 hands.

Here is an example:

Say you've been making a lot of continuation bets after PF raises, and C/F turns when you miss.

You raise xy. Flop comes 982. One caller.

Check, Bet, Call.

Turn is a 2. In this situation, sometimes if you don't have a piece you might give up. However, given your table image, it might be very profitable for you to fire a second barrel as your opponent probably thinks you only fire 2nd barrels with legit hands.

The point of this example is that your table image can greatly influence certain decisions. One of the reasons it's so difficult to comment on HU NL hands is because a lot of that depends on the previous hands that you've played with the opponent.

Let's say an average player opens from the button. You reraise AQo from the big blind and he folds. Very next hand you are dealt AA. He opens from the cutoff. You should very seriously consider making an abnormal size raise. If he raises 4 times the blind, maybe you should consider reraising him 20 times the blind. This is especially the case when you have just sat down at the table. Most players don't have the thought process required to deduce the real reason you are reraising so much and will think your a nutjob and go broke with a mediocore hand.

Similar situation, however this time you hold a hand like TT or JJ. In this case, you should almost always just call his preflop raise. The reason is that he won't give you as much credit for a strong hand since you are reraising him two times in a row. You are very likely to be put all-in preflop, or get raised on the flop. A hand like TT or JJ will have trouble dealing with this much pressure.

This is all I can think of at the moment but I'll try to add something next week. If you have ideas on what you would like me to discuss, feel free to PM them to me. I'm too tired to proofread this, so if something doesn't make sense, lemme know and I'll try to address it.

Enjoy.

Morrek 11-17-2005 11:31 AM

Re: Advice f/ a MHNL\'er Post #3
 
I've been waiting for this one, thanks a bunch for writing all this

TheWorstPlayer 11-17-2005 11:32 AM

Re: Advice f/ a MHNL\'er Post #3
 
Nice post.

Lady Dont Tekno 11-17-2005 11:40 AM

Re: Advice f/ a MHNL\'er Post #3
 
Good post but you should link to your #1 and #2 in this or your sig so I don't have to search. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

FlyingStart 11-17-2005 11:42 AM

Re: Advice f/ a MHNL\'er Post #3
 
Great post. It's nice to have something you have thought about for some time put so clearly into words.

Also, I think I will follow your advise and move into 6-max, I have been staying clear of those games too long.

RollinHand 11-17-2005 11:44 AM

Re: Advice f/ a MHNL\'er Post #3
 
Very nice, your posts are gold!

Thanks! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

4_2_it 11-17-2005 11:50 AM

Re: Advice f/ a MHNL\'er Post #3
 
Thank you. I eagerly await #4.

beavens 11-17-2005 12:38 PM

Re: Advice f/ a MHNL\'er Post #3
 
great read - i definitely need to datamine and have better table/seat selection.

thank you for the post.

Dumle 11-17-2005 12:38 PM

Re: Advice f/ a MHNL\'er Post #3
 
I hadn't seen the others and just looked them up. This is great stuff! Thanks!

Dumle

Mercman572 11-17-2005 12:52 PM

Re: Advice f/ a MHNL\'er Post #3
 
thanks I enjoyed this

waxie 11-17-2005 01:23 PM

Re: Advice f/ a MHNL\'er Post #3
 
This post is so good it's scary.

I've been staying away from online play, but all of the concepts apply to SH tables as well. I think my key leak (until I started really understanding what I was reading on 2+2) was that I didn't know how to play post flop. Playing shorthanded has really forced me to learn how to play after the flop and I'm a much better player for it.

I've been playing .5/.10 with kids from my college on a regular basis. Most of them are extreme fish, but some of them have actually read a poker book or two. I think I have an edge on all of them, but some edges are bigger than others. Only reccently have I started looking for ways to play pots with the fish and stay away from hands with the kids who know what sort of know what they are doing.

I've found an interesting dynamic develops as well. After we've been playing for two hours or so, the table will go from 7-8 players to 3-4 players. The kids left will be much better players and the game will get harder.

I'm usually up a few bucks or more by the time we get shorthanded. Should I keep playing with the better players and improve or cut my losses? I think it might be worth it to sacrifice some edge to learn how to be a better player.

FlyingStart 11-17-2005 02:03 PM

Re: Advice f/ a MHNL\'er Post #3
 
I tried to datamine Stars after reading this post, but PT wouldn't import the handhistories. Am i doing something wrong, or do you have to play at certain sites to do this?

Mackerel 11-17-2005 02:18 PM

Re: Advice f/ a MHNL\'er Post #3
 
This is one of the best posts I've seen in this forum for a while. Thanks for taking the time. I've been too busy to lurk much lately, and I must've missed the other two posts you mentioned, I think I'll search for them.

kitaristi0 11-18-2005 02:59 AM

Re: Advice f/ a MHNL\'er Post #3
 
I'm gonna bump this, just in case someone missed it.

Angavar 11-18-2005 04:12 AM

Re: Advice f/ a MHNL\'er Post #3
 
Awesome post. Thanks heaps. Everyone should read this.

Skuzzy 11-18-2005 04:58 AM

Re: Advice f/ a MHNL\'er Post #3
 
[ QUOTE ]


I've found an interesting dynamic develops as well. After we've been playing for two hours or so, the table will go from 7-8 players to 3-4 players. The kids left will be much better players and the game will get harder.

I'm usually up a few bucks or more by the time we get shorthanded. Should I keep playing with the better players and improve or cut my losses? I think it might be worth it to sacrifice some edge to learn how to be a better player.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are certain truths in poker that are harder to integrate and believe than others. The money in poker comes from the bad players and flows to the good players, the good players know that they must isolate the weak and attack them to win. You seemed to 'get' this yet deny the truth of it for the sake of 'improving'. The real epiphany is when you realise that the 'improvement' comes from seeing the fish leave and leaving with them and their money. This is key to being profitable at poker. Improving so you can beat tougher games is a fools goal. You improve at cash game poker by not playing tougher games, the winner is and always will be the guy who makes the highest EV decisions, and not putting your bankroll in high risk situations is +EV

I used to stay in games to prove I was the best. But ring games are not the place for this - if you need to prove someting play tournaments.

Just a thought.

To OP: well played sir!




Rotterdaum 11-18-2005 05:33 AM

Re: Advice f/ a MHNL\'er Post #3
 
whitelime,

This is a very good feature, I hope you keep doing it!

To anybody,

Can you please instruct me how to datamine? When I join tables at Party, the hands aren't saved unless I sit down. How do you get around this?

Tears for Fears 11-18-2005 05:36 AM

Re: Advice f/ a MHNL\'er Post #3
 
You are an idiot

Period.

Skuzzy 11-18-2005 05:40 AM

Re: Advice f/ a MHNL\'er Post #3
 
get poker tracker - setup to import observed hands - they are stored in files in the party root directory normally c:\program fiiles\party poker\ and can be read with a text editor.

Without poker tracker or another anlaysis tool, data stays data and never reaches the dizzy heights of information.

xorbie 11-18-2005 05:40 AM

Re: Advice f/ a MHNL\'er Post #3
 
[ QUOTE ]
You are an idiot

Period.

[/ QUOTE ]

wtf...

lautzutao 11-18-2005 05:44 AM

Re: Advice f/ a MHNL\'er Post #3
 
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a2...ao/troll_2.jpg

edge 11-18-2005 05:46 AM

Re: Advice f/ a MHNL\'er Post #3
 
[ QUOTE ]
If your game selection consists solely of putting yourself on the waitlists of the tables with the biggest avg pots/highest% to the flop, your game selection sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Guess what I do, and have done the whole time I've played poker [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Rotterdaum 11-18-2005 05:49 AM

Re: Advice f/ a MHNL\'er Post #3
 
[ QUOTE ]
get poker tracker - setup to import observed hands - they are stored in files in the party root directory normally c:\program fiiles\party poker\ and can be read with a text editor.

Without poker tracker or another anlaysis tool, data stays data and never reaches the dizzy heights of information.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have pokertracker, and I don't see where the observed hands are saved at Party. What is the file called? Where is it saved? Is it a temporary file in the Program Files/PartyPoker/ or something? Do I set up their import in the Auto-Import set up or what? Still confused

Skuzzy 11-18-2005 05:53 AM

Re: Advice f/ a MHNL\'er Post #3
 
Yeah, it has a .hhf extension and they are wiped out when you close Party down. Use the auto import feature that is designed for party in poker tracker not the default one. It has an observed hand import feature. Really though, go the poker tracker website or open the help and search for observed hands party. All will become clear and better explained than I can do here.

scrapperdog 11-18-2005 07:53 AM

Re: Advice f/ a MHNL\'er Post #3
 
[ QUOTE ]


The bottom line is that speculative hands fluctuate in value depending on the player you are playing them against.


[/ QUOTE ]

I am guilty of not paying enough attention to this, thanks for pointing it out.

DWarrior 11-18-2005 08:03 AM

Re: Advice f/ a MHNL\'er Post #3
 
So wait, should I have a list of marks and play them even if the other table conditions (pot size, vp$ip) are unfavorable?

whitelime 11-18-2005 08:47 AM

Re: Advice f/ a MHNL\'er Post #3
 
You don't necessarily need to make a list, but rather recognize them. On average, tables with lower VPIP's and lower avg pot sizes will be less profitable, but don't let that sway you from sitting down if you see a ripe seat to the direct left of a very weak player.

ChipWrecked 11-18-2005 10:03 AM

Re: Advice f/ a MHNL\'er Post #3
 
Thanks, whitelime.

Part 1


Part 2

zaphod 11-18-2005 10:12 AM

Re: Advice f/ a MHNL\'er Post #3
 
Thank you, good post.

Ojo_Rojo 11-18-2005 11:22 AM

Re: Advice f/ a MHNL\'er Post #3
 
Thanks buddy, youre a diamond... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
First of all, a solid player's opening range is going to be such that every time you flop your set, he will not necessarily have a strong enough hand to pay you off. Say he raises KQ and the flop comes J75. You aren't going to win much off him. Remember, that you have to plan on getting 50 big blinds worth of his stack in the middle just to BREAK EVEN on your small pocket pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is my favourite bit - but isnt mentioned often anywhere else as far as I know. While this is great advice, its also a great arguement for having wide-range raising values preflop yourself.

Overall, a careful player with KQo and a preflop raise will make a killing against a tight set-peddlar with a pocket pair.

Ojo Rojo

Aloysius 11-18-2005 03:03 PM

Re: Advice f/ a MHNL\'er Post #3
 
Thanks - your posts rule. Maybe more MH players want to post general wisdom here... ? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] Czero, diablo?

wslee00 11-18-2005 03:20 PM

Re: Advice f/ a MHNL\'er Post #3
 
[ QUOTE ]
I think that every player takes a progression throughout their poker careers from full ring to 6 max, to 3 handed and HU play. The fewer the number of players, the more potential the game has for profitability. The reasons for this are fairly obvious.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm stupid - how is this obvious? I would think the more players in the games -> more fish -> more money.

whitelime did mention that there are more fish in 6max than in full ring, but does this trend continue when you get to 3handed and HU?

soah 11-18-2005 03:39 PM

Re: Advice f/ a MHNL\'er Post #3
 
I think it's worth expanding on the fact that the games with the biggest pot sizes are not always the best games. I remember playing in some 2+2 games where the average pot size was twice that of any other game being spread at that limit... and they were certainly the toughest as well. If the big pots are being generated by lots of called bets and showdowns, then it's a good game. If the big pots are the result of lots of focused aggression taking down pots, it's not a good game. This is especially important to remember at Party where uncalled bets are counted as part of the pot.

Figure a .5/1 game...

A couple people limp in ($4 in pot). Half pot bet on flop gets called ($8). Half pot on turn gets called ($16). River gets checked through.

Or... someone raises to $4 preflop and SB calls ($9). One of the players bets $9 on the flop and the other folds. ($18)

Similar average pot sizes, but certainly not at all the same.

whitelime 11-19-2005 02:05 AM

Re: Advice f/ a MHNL\'er Post #3
 
Comparing 6Max to Full Ring, it has to do with the ratio of fish to decent players. This ratio will be greater in 6Max. As for 3-handed and HU, your edge isn't coming so much from the fact that everyone who plays 3-handed or HU is a fish, but rather that you can exercise pure game selection. Additionally, assuming you sit down with players who you are better than, your edge is now greater because you will be playing more hands with them and making more decisions.

BobboFitos 11-20-2005 10:26 AM

Re: Advice f/ a MHNL\'er Post #3
 
[ QUOTE ]
whitelime did mention that there are more fish in 6max than in full ring, but does this trend continue when you get to 3handed and HU?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes

punter11235 11-20-2005 10:58 AM

Re: Advice f/ a MHNL\'er Post #3
 
[ QUOTE ]
Guess what I do, and have done the whole time I've played poker

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh Edge I am doing the same. But recently I upgraded my algorithm and when I sit down and after few hands see three regulars and two 19/10 guys at my table I sitout and change it [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

AJFenix 11-22-2005 07:43 PM

Re: Advice f/ a MHNL\'er Post #3
 
Awesome post sir.

Ratamahatta 01-16-2006 07:50 PM

Re: Advice f/ a MHNL\'er Post #3
 
Is there a number 4, 5...?
It has been more then a month since the last MHHL'er Post.
Did I mis it?

george w 01-16-2006 08:15 PM

Re: Advice f/ a MHNL\'er Post #3
 
re: table selection at party i find the following method works well: click the check box marked 'Hide full tables', double click the first table in the list, buy in, wash, rinse, repeat .

thedustbustr 01-16-2006 08:35 PM

Re: Advice f/ a MHNL\'er Post #3
 
[ QUOTE ]
re: table selection at party i find the following method works well: click the check box marked 'Hide full tables', double click the first table in the list, buy in, wash, rinse, repeat .

[/ QUOTE ]
you obviously didn't even read his post. this thread is ancient anyway.

to grandparent: no, I haven't seen any subsequent posts on this topic either.


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