Player Discussion
 

Hi Everyone:

I thought I would pass along a little discussion that I took part in tonight. I've been trying to play some no limit hold 'em since it has become so popular and we are publishing books on this subject, so earlier this evening I was sitting in a $5-$10 blind no limit game at The Wynn.

What happen was that a player raised to $40 and then got reraised to $150. The original raiser then folded and showed A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. His opponent then showed J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

This of course started a discussion as to which hand was better. Most of the table agreed that the pair of jacks were better since they would win over 50 percent of the time in a show down. Then someone said, "Let's ask Mason since he writes all the books." My answer was that if someone was all-in, the jacks would be better, but if they each had chips left, which was the case here, the ace-queen suited was better.

Well, no one understood what I was talking about. No wonder the games are good.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: Player Discussion
 

with position and the advantage of being the aggressor, id perfer jj to aq.

Re: Player Discussion
 

I prefer JJ over AQs in any NL game regardless of stack size. Do you see why?

Re: Player Discussion
 

I'll take JJ over any ace any day.

Re: Player Discussion
 

I would rather have position, the next option would be JJ WAY OVER AQ, not even close.

Re: Player Discussion
 

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I would rather have position, the next option would be JJ WAY OVER AQ, not even close.

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Position is great and all, but position or no position, I would MUCH rather have JJ than AQ.

Re: Player Discussion
 

JJ is a lot more valuable than AQ in a cash game... I see the point you are TRYING to make, but your example sucks.

Re: Player Discussion
 

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JJ is a lot more valuable than AQ in a cash game... I see the point you are TRYING to make, but your example sucks.

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actually position/being the aggressor is alot more valuable. JJ is better HU then AQ, but its not a huge margin.

Re: Player Discussion
 

I think that 99 is better than AK headsup. The more chips the bigger an advantage... AQ vs JJ in not even close imo.

Best wishes

Re: Player Discussion
 

are you trying to get that its easier to tell if you are ahead or behind in the hand with AQs over JJ once the board is up?

Re: Player Discussion
 

The hand that puts in the last raise before the flop is the hand that is best

that is the RULE when the hands are close in showdown value

Re: Player Discussion
 

The AQ fold was (in almost all cases) a good one, as I'm sure you know.

I have to agree that JJ is a much better cash game hand because of the ability to make a set/full house which is much more profitable on the whole than a potential nut flush (not to mention it's much easier to make a set).

Who cares if it's a virtual coinflip at showdown? Do you see AQ (or JJ for that matter) getting shown down a lot when all the money goes in preflop in a cash game when the stacks are 100xBB or more? If so, stay in that game...

I feel like I'm missing something here.

Ryan

Re: Player Discussion
 

Hypothetical hands. Each player has $1500 in front. AQs vs JJ. $5-10 blinds.

Hand 1 AQs raises UTG to $40. Re-raised by CO to $150. AQs calls. $315 pot.

Flop Q 9 2r. AQs bets pot $300, pot is now $615 and CO goes AI for his $1350. AQs has $1050 to call $1965. Call?


Hand 2 same pre-flop action but you're CO with JJ.

Flop T 7 2r. UTG checks. JJ bets pot $300, pot is now $615 and UTG c/r's his $1350 AI. You have $1050 to call $1965. Call?

These are both good flops for these hands but, based on position, action and hand strength, is the decision to call the same for both?

P.S. - Checked the math 5 times and hope there's no typo's.

Re: Player Discussion
 

Hi Mason,

[ QUOTE ]
My answer was that if someone was all-in, the jacks would be better, but if they each had chips left, which was the case here, the ace-queen suited was better.

Well, no one understood what I was talking about. No wonder the games are good.


[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, slow down on the condescension, Boss--you're almost certainly wrong. In limit, your answer is correct. In NL, the Jacks are definitely better in deep stacked situations, and probably in all situations where both players have substantial chips left.

Yours is a limit player's mistake: you are overvaluing the top pair-type hands that AQs can make; AQs will rarely be able to win a big pot, or stand up to much heat post-flop, while JJ will often be able to. I'll let others elaborate, but just realize that the set-flopping potential of JJ, and the frequency with which it'll be an overpair on the flop makes it much stronger than the top pair or combo draw AQs will sometimes flop.

Re: Player Discussion
 

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I was sitting in a $5-$10 blind no limit

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.....
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No wonder the games are good.

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[img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Re: Player Discussion
 

edited because i had not yet read fsu's rapier wit.

Re: Player Discussion
 

youre only correct if they get quite a few chips in preflop, the player with an Ax is suited, and they arent deep enough that the JJ has huge implied odds on flopping a set

youre assuming the AQs will be able to bluff the JJ enough of the time to make up for an inferior hand, or flop a playable draw enough to push the JJ around

i really havent seen any sort of mathematical equations for this sort of debated situation, and im sure the game theory decision tree would be quite complicated

to sum up, im really getting irrate at the herd mindset on this board, yes mason is correct in many situations, even if not in the typical NL that most of us play, but MOST NL PLAYERS DONT PLAY LIKE WE DO OR IN GAMES LIKE WE PLAY IN

Re: Player Discussion
 

this is really not in depth enough to reveal the true complexities of possible situations, but i like where youre going!

Re: Player Discussion
 

get your own material. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Player Discussion
 

Um...between this post, your post in the O8 forum, and a few others lately, you are really smoking. Thanks, man!

Re: Player Discussion
 

apparently, mason thinks the hand w/ the imlied odds is AQs as it wont be paying off JJ UI...
im not gonna argure, but the JJ is better. mason prob is not that strong in NL.

Re: Player Discussion
 

Given that the deck is missing an A, Q, J, and another J... there are 48 cards left in the deck. Assuming the JJ doesn't flop a set, there's 10 cards(3 Qs, 4 Ks, 3 As) that will easily scare JJ off his hand. Feeling stupid that I don't know how to do the math to figure out chances of flopping one of 10 outs, but maybe if I BS I can get there...

so 48 cards left for flop card 1, 10/48
flop card 2, 10/47=21%
flop card 3, 10/46

I'll go ahead and use 21% for all 3. 63% chance that JJ will flop an overcard in this situation. This seems really high so correct me if I'm wrong. But if I am right, 63% of the time JJ will most likely have to let go of his hand if faced with resistance.

Another issue that is already covered, it is a lot easier for AQs to tell if he has the best hand than the JJ. Just a couple thoughts,
-Ace



EDIT: Also, I think if this hand were played out with 1000 different flops, 500 with JJ in position, 500 with AQs in position... my money is on AQs coming out on top. Lets say a K flops, JJ bets anyways, takes down the pot. An A or Q flops, JJ bets anyways, gets called or reraised and is forced to slowdown or let go of the hand. AQs either hits or misses, with the exception of QJ or AJ flops. I'll take position first, then AQs all day long.

Re: Player Discussion
 

[ QUOTE ]
Another issue that is already covered, it is a lot easier for AQs to tell if he has the best hand than the JJ.

[/ QUOTE ]
?

vs. AK on A72r flop.
vs KK/AA on Q33 flop.

Re: Player Discussion
 

Doesn't it seem like you're simplifying things a bit too much? First of all, I think JJ is an overpair to the flop around 50% of the time, but that's just off my head so could be wrong. But definitely it is not true that AQ will have an easier time knowing when it is behind. Sure, if the flop is all undercards, it may be easy to know it is behind. But when the flop is AJ2 or AQJ that's not going to be easy to get away from. Particularly if there is a flush draw on the board.

Re: Player Discussion
 

In addition to position and who is agressing, wouldn't a lot depend on the individual players skill sets?

Re: Player Discussion
 

if im remembering right, you flop a set or overpair w JJ around 48%.

Re: Player Discussion
 

OOHHH!! So wrong as far as I'm concerned. Maybe this argument holds true in limit, but in NL? no way. No reasonable nl player in his right mind is going to pay off AQs when the hand hits... any A or Q and JJ should shut down to any serious action from the other player. Any non A,Q will shut down the AQ player. So, you would think you're at a standstill, but let's look what happens when each player hits a monster, for implied odds...

AQ = flop AQx. Or XsXsXs. Either way, what moron is playing JJ to pay this off.

JJ = Flop AJ5. DING DING DING. Basically, I think we see that JJ is the easier hand to play, it's slightly better in the cointoss and it's implied odds are MUCH higher than AQs, since there is NO way JJ will pay off AQs except for the rare Js8s2s flop, but even there JJ should be cautious. I just don't see how AQs has nearly the implied odds that JJ does.... then again, I don't write books

Re: Player Discussion
 

I'll take the JJ.

Re: Player Discussion
 

The AQ has to fold almost 2/3 of flops and the JJ can get away on 90% of the flops where it's beat.

Re: Player Discussion
 

JJ. I'm a fish like the rest of you.

Re: Player Discussion
 

AQ is only going to be ahead on the flop 1/3rd of the time, so unless he can win the pot every time he flops a gutter or a spade draw through sheer agression, i'll take the JJ. Also, there are very flops very JJ loses a lot of money when behind unless he flops a set against a flush, whereas AQ might lose a lot on AJx flop ot Qjx flop. Just my inital response.

Re: Player Discussion
 

Make it AKs and there's more of a debate. I sometimes prefer 99 to AQs.

Confusion
 

Hi Everyone:

The question isn't whether jacks is better than ace-queen suited. If you raise with ace-queen suited and get a good sized reraise, as long as the player is playing somewhat rationally you have to fold.

The question is regardless as to whether it is right or wrong to call the raise, if you do go ahead and call it, which hand would you now rather have. (Of course in reality if you hold the ace-queen you don't know that your opponent holds precisely jacks and vice-versa.)

Here's a hint. In almost all cases the ace-queen will check the flop and the player holding the jacks will bet probably somewhere between half the pot to the whole pot.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: Confusion
 

Id still rather have JJ.

Re: Confusion
 

[ QUOTE ]
Id still rather have JJ.

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Re: Confusion
 

AQ generally won't win much if he hits the flop, when JJ doesnt hit.

JJ won't win much if AQ doesnt hit, but it can win a lot if both hit.

So yeah, JJ pls. It will win more often on the flop, and with a decent postflop game, it will have more equity in pots where both players advance beyond the flop.

And when you are up against a tight reraise range, it seems quite obvious that JJ is stronger than AQs

Marnix

Re: Confusion
 

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Id still rather have JJ.

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Re: Player Discussion
 

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[ QUOTE ]
I was sitting in a $5-$10 blind no limit

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.....
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No wonder the games are good.

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[img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

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lol, this post rules.

Re: Confusion
 

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Id still rather have JJ.

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Re: Confusion
 

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Here's a hint. In almost all cases the ace-queen will check the flop and the player holding the jacks will bet probably somewhere between half the pot to the whole pot.


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and once that happens, the guy with AQ will fold unless he hit a pair, in which case, he is left wondering if he is still beat by a bigger pair or set. so you cant even count on your outs being good 1/3 of the time. or he will c/r all in with a big flopped draw, and be praying for 50% equity at best.