Tighty-whitey\'s downward spiral.
 

I've got a problem, and I can't tell if it's all in my head (bad luck lately, bad table selection lately, etc.) or if I'm actually just crippling myself without knowing it.

So, I'm tight at the tables. I play a 16/9 game, give or take. If I find myself with a bad streak of cards, I can easily run below 8% VPIP. Now, when this happens for a few orbits, I get ridiculous respect for my raises. WAY too much respect. I find that at the tables, I either win a very small pot, or lose a huge one. My bets and continuation bets get folded around unless my opponent catches something monsterous, and then I get put in horrible situations with decent hands (TPTK) against LAGs who take shots at me. If I shoot back, *BLAMMO* they put me all-in. If I don't shoot back, they eat me alive, one preflop raise at a time.

SO, I tighten up even more to avoid having my bets and raises picked off by hyper-aggressive opponents. That means that I'm playing even fewer hands, losing even more from the blinds, and getting even MORE respect from my raises, meaning I barely break even, if that.

There's GOT to be a happy medium that lets me win a big pot on occasion, but still play tightly. Is there some "trick of the trade" for tight players that gets them action? I get so depressed seeing four lagtards on my table going all-in with 3PNK, and then when *I* try to get involved, they fold out or beat me with some stealthy monster.

Yeah, I'm probably just bitching, but my serious question is "how do you get action as a tighty?" If the answer is "just play tight; you've been incredibly unlucky" I can live with that, but if it's something else, I'd love to hear it.

Re: Tighty-whitey\'s downward spiral.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've got a problem, and I can't tell if it's all in my head (bad luck lately, bad table selection lately, etc.) or if I'm actually just crippling myself without knowing it.

So, I'm tight at the tables. I play a 16/9 game, give or take. If I find myself with a bad streak of cards, I can easily run below 8% VPIP. Now, when this happens for a few orbits, I get ridiculous respect for my raises. WAY too much respect. I find that at the tables, I either win a very small pot, or lose a huge one. My bets and continuation bets get folded around unless my opponent catches something monsterous, and then I get put in horrible situations with decent hands (TPTK) against LAGs who take shots at me. If I shoot back, *BLAMMO* they put me all-in. If I don't shoot back, they eat me alive, one preflop raise at a time.

SO, I tighten up even more to avoid having my bets and raises picked off by hyper-aggressive opponents. That means that I'm playing even fewer hands, losing even more from the blinds, and getting even MORE respect from my raises, meaning I barely break even, if that.

There's GOT to be a happy medium that lets me win a big pot on occasion, but still play tightly. Is there some "trick of the trade" for tight players that gets them action? I get so depressed seeing four lagtards on my table going all-in with 3PNK, and then when *I* try to get involved, they fold out or beat me with some stealthy monster.

Yeah, I'm probably just bitching, but my serious question is "how do you get action as a tighty?" If the answer is "just play tight; you've been incredibly unlucky" I can live with that, but if it's something else, I'd love to hear it.

[/ QUOTE ]

so.... you're playing so predictably that even fish catch on?

Re: Tighty-whitey\'s downward spiral.
 

Are you talking 6max or full?

Re: Tighty-whitey\'s downward spiral.
 

One of the adjustments I made that got me a lot more action was sticking in a whole lot more flop raises in position, and doing more check/raising and less continuation betting OOP with everything from sets to overpairs to draws to air. These raises are relatively cheap, especially in unraised pots, and they make a world of difference when you're playing against fishy opponents who have an image of you based on anywhere from the last 5 to 50 hands.

Getting to showdown in say a 20 bb pot and having the whole table see you made that flop move with 8-high is awesome. It happens to me fairly often, and I lose some money obviously, but I more than make up for it by getting paid off by all kinds of crappy hands when I have the goods. If I do pick up a set or a big pair when my image is like this, I often put in big all-in overbets on the turn or river and get paid because my opponents fail to differentiate between my small bluffs and my huge value bets.

The key is looking a whole lot crazier and looser than you actually are without losing much, and this relies heavily on knowing which guys can and can't fold hands.

Re: Tighty-whitey\'s downward spiral.
 

Hi Pokey,

It sounds like you need to change gears. When I'm getting too much respect I loosen up a little, play a few more hands and make a few more PFR's. When I start to get some action I tighten back up a little. If you're always tight (and your description sounded like it) then what you are experiencing keeps happening. By loosening up sometimes, you get lots of the smaller pots before they catch on. When they catch on you tighten back up some and nail them. Rinse and repeat.

It also sounds like you may want to take a bit more time in your table selection, and not feel like once you've decided you have to stick it out there. I sometimes bop around a lot! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Garon

Re: Tighty-whitey\'s downward spiral.
 

Are you playing 6 max or fullring? Use position to your advantage, play as loose as you can stand it in the CO and on the Button. Another technique (which I havent tried) is to mathematically randomize your play. Either pick certain hands to raise with from any position or use a certain time on your watch to raise any hand (last 5 seconds of the minute or something like that).

Re: Tighty-whitey\'s downward spiral.
 

Mix it up a little. Find a nice loose passive table. Play post-flop. Is it REALLY that hard to get away from a hand when you're beat?

If you're sitting under 10 VPIP it really isn't any wonder you don't get much action. You raise me I'm out. But I'll see a flop with you, cause if you're too aggressive I'm gone. If you keep it cheap enough to play I'm gone when I miss. If I hit, I'm wrecking your one hand in 2 orbits. But you're not profitable to play against so generally I (and the rest of the table) won't bother.

Play some cheap draws, show down that one gapper when it misses and you can check behind. C-Bet air occasionally. Play small pairs for set value, hit a few sc's.

It isn't uber-tight that wins down here. You just need to be a 'little' tighter than your opponents. So when they call you with A7 you just happen to have A9. Different story at high limits or at a table where everything is 3-bet preflop.

If 3BB to see a flop feels so expensive you can't take it, move down a level. A little 6-max might get you comfortable playing more hands.

Or just open up 24-tables and nut-peddle to your hearts content. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Mike

Re: Tighty-whitey\'s downward spiral.
 

how often to do try to steal blinds??

i feel that since i do this alot, it helps be get action on my big hands

fwiw, i play 6max

Re: Tighty-whitey\'s downward spiral.
 

Play more 6-max. Look for more spots to steal. Look for better tables .. these LAGs sound *way* more aware than the guys at my PartyPoker 6-max NL50 tables.

Re: Tighty-whitey\'s downward spiral.
 

Pokey,

I feel silly saying this, as I am a lowly noob giving an experienced poster some advice, but I think you need to mix things up.

I play pretty tight, but my VPIP varies significantly based on the table and my image. When my raises get too much respect, I'll raise anything from CO or button until I get my CB bets picked off. I love raising J4o and taking the pot down with a CB!

When the opposite occurs, and your raises get no respect, raise much less and CB only with the goods. Play most PP for set value!

Just don't try to force your style onto your opponents, play to his weakness and adapt your style to theirs. Play tighter against LAGs, looser against tighy/whities. Sounds obvious, but sometimes the basic fundamentals is what we need to work on most. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Hope this helps.

DAR

Re: Tighty-whitey\'s downward spiral.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Play more 6-max. Look for more spots to steal. Look for better tables .. these LAGs sound *way* more aware than the guys at my PartyPoker 6-max NL50 tables.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would be very surprised if the people at the NL50 tables on Party are paying that much attention to your game.

Re: Tighty-whitey\'s downward spiral.
 

I've been around a 18/10 guy for a fair while now specifically because I feel like the 100/200nl tables I play out have so many atrocious lags that this is the most profitable way to play. If I find I'm at a tighter more predictable table but there's a huge fish I want to stay for I open up a bit and play the isolation game but even then I dont get that much over 25/15.

16/9 isn't a whole lot tighter than the 18/10 game I play and the majority of the guys you play with(cant remember what you play 50/100nl?) won't notice your playing tight. To me it just sounds like your running bad. Bad lags catching hands against you is the epitome of running bad if you ask me.

Also if you feel like people are taking shots at you then start calling down more. For example you have Aces and the flop is J76 or whatever with a flush draw and you get raised. Just call down. Don't worry about the flush draw. If people are really taking shots at you they will have air/middle pair type hands most of the time anyway. The villains will soon get the message that you can't be pushed arounbd if you call them down a couple of times. Also if your continuation bets are being messed with start chkraising some flops when you've missed and when you have an overpair/monster. You would be surprised how many people will stack off the flop in my previous example with TJ if you chkraise the flop and push a blank turn. Also think about that flop and having AK. You bet and getting raised by stuff like 88 is probably a common thing for you at the moment. Think about the problem villain has with 88 if you chkraise the flop instead.

Paul

Re: Tighty-whitey\'s downward spiral.
 

[ QUOTE ]
here's GOT to be a happy medium that lets me win a big pot on occasion, but still play tightly.

[/ QUOTE ]

This sentence indicates to me that you are not taking the correct approach to playing this game. I'll let others elaborate.

Re: Tighty-whitey\'s downward spiral.
 

Bluff more. Especially when your cards have been running cold. I really don't know what more there is to say.

Re: Tighty-whitey\'s downward spiral.
 

i've been 4-tabling and I find that especially when the tables get shorter i.e 4 or less then i'm put into uncomfortable situations of basically being run over. i also play too passive so I'm going to be cutting back my tables to 3 or so. ugh. i hate the feeling of being run over, but then you start playing back in marginal situations and lose then the tilt compounds [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Tighty-whitey\'s downward spiral.
 

I think that loosening up your pre-flop play in late position could do wonders for your game. Raise any hand you would normally raise, any pair and any suited connector. Also if you do not already do so, reraise almost anyone who opens from middle or late position AK (suited or not) especially short stacks.

Re: Tighty-whitey\'s downward spiral.
 

I have been in the same spot and there is not much you can do but change table. However, i read somewhere (cannot remember where) that you should play a bad bluff and get caught - this shows you are not infallible - obviously not for too much money. Your opponents see a weakness, close in for the kill, you then play top starting hands and trap them. I think that was the way it was supposed to work.
I change table or play another table as well, sticking to my original game on first table, when people leave the new arrivals take a while to get settled and during that time they can lose money.

Re: Tighty-whitey\'s downward spiral.
 

Bet, bet, raise, bet, and raise.
Fold to a minraise.
This works for me.

Re: Tighty-whitey\'s downward spiral.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
here's GOT to be a happy medium that lets me win a big pot on occasion, but still play tightly.

[/ QUOTE ]

This sentence indicates to me that you are not taking the correct approach to playing this game. I'll let others elaborate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you explain already? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Tighty-whitey\'s downward spiral.
 

Pokey,

I just went through exactly what you are talking about. My stats are very similar to yours. When what you describes starts happening you actually have to loosen up. As one poster said, even the most unobservant SSNL players will notice when you are down below 15% VPIP and will only play back at you once they hit a really strong hand.

In order to effectively fight this situation you really need to loosen up some and get involved in more pots and marginal situations. Once the table accepts that you have loosened up and they are willing to call your raises, then you can tighten back up again if that is your comfort zone.

Despite the common post here that says that most SSNL players are completely oblivious to what is going on around them, this really isn't accurate. Most of the people playing SSNL are somewhat observant and will notice obvious things, it is how they interpret and act on this information that gets the typical SSNL player in trouble.

They ARE noticing that you are playing incredibly tight, so they won't get involved with you unless they think they can beat your strong hand. The only way I have found to effectively fight this situation is to loosen up for a while.

What I have done on occasion is when I have late position I raise 2-3 hands in a row (with ANY 2) for a couple of cycles on the table. At first, they will fold to your raises but generally by the second cycle on the table people figure out that you don't have this many good hands in a row and start playing back at you again.

I always like your posts, so I hope this one helps you out a bit.

Best of luck Pokey.

Re: Tighty-whitey\'s downward spiral.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
here's GOT to be a happy medium that lets me win a big pot on occasion, but still play tightly.

[/ QUOTE ]

This sentence indicates to me that you are not taking the correct approach to playing this game. I'll let others elaborate.

[/ QUOTE ]

I miss amoeba and xorbie.

Re: Tighty-whitey\'s downward spiral.
 

in my experience, the best way to get a crazy image without adding too many more hands is to play strong draws very agressively, reraise a bit more pf (especially against blind steals from loose players) and steal against continuation bets more (both in and oop with c/r).

Re: Tighty-whitey\'s downward spiral.
 

[ QUOTE ]
and steal against continuation bets more (both in and oop with c/r).

[/ QUOTE ]

Xorbie, what do you mean by c/r in position? Do you mean rr in position and c/r oop?

Re: Tighty-whitey\'s downward spiral.
 

if you want action, you have to give it...

Re: Tighty-whitey\'s downward spiral.
 

Set aside a couple of buyins from your ridiculous roll, go to a $25NL or $50NL 6 max table and play a 40/30 game for a while. Learn to at least break even. Now, when you're getting too much respect, you can slip into another gear for a couple of orbits and then switch back.

Re: Tighty-whitey\'s downward spiral.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
and steal against continuation bets more (both in and oop with c/r).

[/ QUOTE ]

Xorbie, what do you mean by c/r in position? Do you mean rr in position and c/r oop?

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah

Re: Tighty-whitey\'s downward spiral.
 

Not sure I agree with everything said here, but I think one of the keys to playing a very tight style at SSNL is table selection. If you are at a table where there are 3+ loose passives, it is going to be very hard to have a hand that one of them won't pay you off with.

I'm tighter than you are actually, but I haven't run into the problem you state except when I play on sites to clear bonuses. The tight players will not pay you off. They know everyone else is tight, so when someone shows aggression, they back down with all but the best hands.

I think table selection adds several bb/100, and when you have party poker...there is plenty of selection.

Re: Tighty-whitey\'s downward spiral.
 

Become self-conscious of your tightness.

Too much respect: You need to be able to go, "Oh, I haven't raised a hand since two orbits go, it's time to raise." Best done in LP. Do it with dubious holdings like suited two-gappers like J8s. If called, bet or reraise any flop as if you have a strong hand. You can sbow if they fold.

Play draws more strongly, but less obviously. Too many people push on the flush draw, reraise it like you have a hand and want to build the pot.

Reraise preflop with air, it scares them because they think you only do this with aces or kings.

Getting played back at by bad players: This is great for when you hit. No complaint here. When it happens too often start being prepared to 3bet all-in with jacks or queens on the flop.



I think being more chatty might help indirectly too. It makes you seem more active. Not just a rock who perks up everytime they're dealt a group 1 holding.

Re: Tighty-whitey\'s downward spiral.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think being more chatty might help indirectly too. It makes you seem more active

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point! Especially true in live games but also works online.

Garon