Is a flop bet mandated here?
 

In retrospect, I wish I had bet the flop (overcards and inside flush draw), but with that many callers preflop, I figured there was a high chance for a check-raise slowplay or turn-card danger from someone. Any thoughts? Is a flop bet mandated?

Ultimate Bet 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (11 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG+2 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG+2 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, UTG+2 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds.

River: (7.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
MP2 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 7.50 BB

Re: Is a flop bet mandated here?
 

:grunch:

Any reads?

Preflop raise is good.

Definitely need a flop bet here. Hand plays out differently after that.

Re: Is a flop bet mandated here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
:grunch:

Any reads?

Preflop raise is good.

Definitely need a flop bet here. Hand plays out differently after that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. The field is too large here for a flop bet with unimproved overcards; you're unlikely to be best, and you're just charging yourself to see the turn. Check is good.

I likely check the turn here too, although if you're going to bet, doing it when the board pairs the turn is a good spot.

Re: Is a flop bet mandated here?
 

bet the flop. as DQ said, it plays different from there. But be clear about why you want bet here. You likely wont fold out everyone but can clean up some outs. you also have backdoor flush and straight draws (note that only straight draw is to the nuts - assuming its not a spade)

I dont really like the turnbet against 4 players since you lose your backdoors and because you didnt bet the flop your bet says "I have overs" (of course we are assuming villians are paying attention [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]). It should also be somewhat obvious to villians that the 4 wasnt likely to much help to you given your preflop raise.

yes, check behind that river

Re: Is a flop bet mandated here?
 

Id say yes. Thats what having position and raising preflop are all about... at least thin the field some, and its possible that you still have the best hand

Re: Is a flop bet mandated here?
 

-= Grunch =

I think you definitely bet the flop, you're acting last and everyone hit blanks, they're checking to you. With this flop, minimal chance of a slow play. 11 bets in the pot, 6 good outs to TP, and a BDFD.

I think it's a definite bet.

Your biggest concern is a small pair... 88..22, a bet at after the flop may push him out.

Re: Is a flop bet mandated here?
 

Don't forget, you had a backdoor straight draw as well. This is the only factor I am using to lean towards a flop bet. Without it, I wouldn't have minded playing it with a flop bet.

Crovax

Re: Is a flop bet mandated here?
 

errr... what is an "inside flush draw"? do you mean backdoor?

Re: Is a flop bet mandated here?
 

I wouldn't.

Re: Is a flop bet mandated here?
 

The flop is an absolute check. The flop is rather coordinated, and doesn't give you a ton of promising outs. We've gotta discount our TP outs for the flush and reverse domination, our backdoor Flush is only to the 3rd nut flush, and with a one card flush and 4 others in this is not very strong. Our Back Door Straight draw is a two gapper and is worth very little.

If we had a gutshot draw I bet this, but not here.

Turn bet is eh.. the pairing made the board less likely to hit anyone, but puts another draw out there.

Re: Is a flop bet mandated here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You likely wont fold out everyone but can clean up some outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

No you can't. Anyone who has you reverse dominated easily has odds to call the flop, and no one has a better A or Q. So do gutshots. Flush draws ain't folding either. The only outs you have a chance of cleaning up are a long A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], but that's not hugely unlikely.

Re: Is a flop bet mandated here?
 

Eegah, you make a good point! yeah, a 5 outer should call here....I still kinda like giving a 6 or 4 with a crappy kicker a chance to fold

so how many outs are we giving our hero here?

[ QUOTE ]
The flop is rather coordinated, and doesn't give you a ton of promising outs. We've gotta discount our TP outs for the flush and reverse domination, our backdoor Flush is only to the 3rd nut flush, and with a one card flush and 4 others in this is not very strong. Our Back Door Straight draw is a two gapper and is worth very little.

[/ QUOTE ]
nh sir. the above is very well put and presents a very good case for not betting the flop. I think I just flip flopped [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Is a flop bet mandated here?
 

I dunno, figure the standard 3 for overcards, 1.5 for da flush and BDSD after discount, so 4.5 outs.

I think we need the free card more than the other five of them combined, so check.

Re: Is a flop bet mandated here?
 

Responding blind: yes

Having read the post: yes

Re: Is a flop bet mandated here?
 

:grunch:
I would be betting the flop

Re: Is a flop bet mandated here?
 

By the way the hand history is messed up. Did the SB openfold the flop or something?

Re: Is a flop bet mandated here?
 

This is part of my game that I am seriously working on. In this case, I check the flop. There's too many people to bet into.

Re: Is a flop bet mandated here?
 

When the flop is checked to you, bet and see what happens. You have two overs plus a backdoor straight draws. You have a chance to pick up the pot(unlikely) but any folds increases your chances of winning. The flop bet also likely sets up a free card on the turn if you miss. If you have only one or two callers on the flop, I probably bet the turn again hoping to fold the field. When you get the inevitable call on the turn. Just check behind on the river and laugh when he shows his bottom pair.

If you are check-raised on the flop. I call and fold turn UI.

Re: Is a flop bet mandated here?
 

Bet the flop. You may knock out a couple, and possibly get a free card.

Re: Is a flop bet mandated here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
In retrospect, I wish I had bet the flop (overcards and inside flush draw), but with that many callers preflop, I figured there was a high chance for a check-raise slowplay or turn-card danger from someone. Any thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you figure that based on the number of players in the pot, or based on the playing styles of villains?

In passive games, go ahead and bet the flop and take the free card on the turn. In more aggressive games, taking the free card on the flop is better.

And a check-raise is not a slowplay.

Re: Is a flop bet mandated here?
 

I don't like betting the flop here. You're not buying yourself any outs and any hands your folding are far worse off than yours. Yes you may increase you chance of winning, but is it enough to justify the bet you're putting in here?
For those saying bet the flop what's your line after the turn is checked to you again? What if it's bet to you?

Re: Is a flop bet mandated here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the flop. You may knock out a couple, and possibly get a free card.

[/ QUOTE ]

i like this a lot

Re: Is a flop bet mandated here?
 

:::grunch:::

Don't bet the flop. You've got 2 overcards that are 5 clean outs, 1 dirty out, and then a backdoor non-nut flush and backdoor straight. So you've got approx 6.5 outs.

If you bet, you don't scare flush or inside straight draws, and everyone who has any piece of that flop gets to draw to two pair/trips. So betting doesn't protect your hand if you're best, and it doesn't scare away any draws. Check it.

Re: Is a flop bet mandated here?
 

Any hand you knock out is a hopeless one.

Seems that only thing betting here can accomplish is building the pot for the better hands.

Re: Is a flop bet mandated here?
 

Grunch: The pot is big, its time to play aggressively and take some risks. You have the two Back door draws plus the OCs, so bet the flop and play it like you have an OP, you just may fold someone out.