77 line check
 

BB is a nitty TAG, 22/16/2, havent played with him much but seems pretty ABC. Button is SLPP, 40/3/.5.
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $5/$10
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is UTG with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
<font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, <font color="#cc0000">BB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, Button calls.

Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (10SB, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, Hero calls, Button folds.

Turn: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (8BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, Hero folds.





I think this is close to a flop fold. The turn I'm pretty much in the same situation as the flop and I wanna fold but can't quite hit the button. On the river, the straight card came giving me a very likely pair and he fires again, so it seems like a pretty safe fold then.

Re: 77 line check
 

I am not folding the flop

Looking at a call you get 11:1. Likely 12:1 here as the most likely action by the button is to overcall. Of course he will raise behind you but then you can call or fold if BB 3-balls and save a turn Big Bet compared to how the hand played out.

Anyhoo with 11:1 and prolly a little bit better you can continue here. Its huge you have the 7 of diamonds. This means that not only do you have a bdfd but when you hit a set you wont improve to the 2nd best behind a flush.

I'd say you have about 3 outs on average when behind on the flop and occasionally you have the best hand.

Folding here should not be an option IMO



Now just throwing it out there. Since BB is nit straightforward and since AK is in his range I would consider raising the flop for protection/info. The good thing here is that BB will play his hand face up telling you exactly if he has QQ, KK, AA or AK.


All in all I think you played it fine. Folding the river is good. He isnt betting AK very often IMO.

Re: 77 line check
 

For me this is a raise or fold flop.If you get 3-bet you can safely lay down your hand IMO.

Re: 77 line check
 

[ QUOTE ]
For me this is a raise or fold flop.If you get 3-bet you can safely lay down your hand IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

How many outs would you give yourself when he 3-bets?

Against QQ, KK, AA its more than 2 on average. Maybe even 3. So folding getting 15:1 is close if not a mistake

Re: 77 line check
 

He has a bdsd too. He has at least 4 outs. With the chance that his hand is good this can never be a flop fold.

I would raise flop. I don't see how a worse hand can 3b given circumstances. Calling flop and leaving 3rd player in just seems to be asking to be outdrawn. Our hand needs protection from overs and bigger diamonds. Btn will often have better backdoors and we want him GONE! (on your bike...)

Re: 77 line check
 

How do you figure 4 outs? A 1 card bdfd isn't nearly as good as a 2 card one especially 7 high and the bdsd is a 1 gapper. I agree with Oink's assessment that it's a 3 outer.

Re: 77 line check
 

[ QUOTE ]
For me this is a raise or fold flop.If you get 3-bet you can safely lay down your hand IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree that it's a raise or fold on the flop, but if you get 3-bet, you've got to peel to the turn. If the turn is a blank (non 7 or diamond) and he continues to fire, then I think you can fold. This may have been what you meant.

Re: 77 line check
 

Assuming a scenario in which button folds hero has 12.3% eq vs QQ, KK, AA. Thats about 3 outs

Now add AdKd and AQs and Hero has about 14.7% eq; about 3.5 outs.

In any case. Folding if it gets 3-bet is a mistake IMO. In particular considering the great implied vs KK and AA

Re: 77 line check
 

So if I raise the flop and get 2 calls, what do I do on the turn? I really doubt my hand is good enough of the time on the flop to attempt to protect it.

Re: 77 line check
 

I'd bet

You might get BB to fold JJ

button can have a bunch of draws

BB doesnt have KK and AA (likely)

If BB c/r you can make an easy fold.

The only spot where I'd consider checking is if a turn gives you a fd or a straight draw

Oh and also ck a K or A turn



rambling. Bet bricks. Check A and K. prolly check a d and a vcard giving you a gut

Re: 77 line check
 

I usually fold in those spots, but if Oink says that is mistake I belive him. But I think calling is worse option here than folding.

Re: 77 line check
 

edit:missread

Re: 77 line check
 

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming a scenario in which button folds hero has 12.3% eq vs QQ, KK, AA. Thats about 3 outs

Now add AdKd and AQs and Hero has about 14.7% eq; about 3.5 outs.

In any case. Folding if it gets 3-bet is a mistake IMO. In particular considering the great implied vs KK and AA

[/ QUOTE ]

So if we raise, get it heads up, bb 3-bets and we call, bb leads turn, you think we should still call? You can't be thinking sd if it gets 3-bet on the flop can you?

I know, I know, stop folding.

Re: 77 line check
 

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming a scenario in which button folds hero has 12.3% eq vs QQ, KK, AA. Thats about 3 outs

Now add AdKd and AQs and Hero has about 14.7% eq; about 3.5 outs.

In any case. Folding if it gets 3-bet is a mistake IMO. In particular considering the great implied vs KK and AA

[/ QUOTE ]correct me if im wrong, but you are talking about the equity for both the turn and the river, right? so hero would pay 3 small bets to win 17(10+5+2). Thats 3:17 + 4-5 implied.

my point is, u cant say hero has 12 % equity and needs to call ONE small bet with the pot offering 15. To make full use from those 13 % equity he needs to call 3

Re: 77 line check
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Assuming a scenario in which button folds hero has 12.3% eq vs QQ, KK, AA. Thats about 3 outs

Now add AdKd and AQs and Hero has about 14.7% eq; about 3.5 outs.

In any case. Folding if it gets 3-bet is a mistake IMO. In particular considering the great implied vs KK and AA

[/ QUOTE ]

So if we raise, get it heads up, bb 3-bets and we call, bb leads turn, you think we should still call? You can't be thinking sd if it gets 3-bet on the flop can you?

I know, I know, stop folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then I'd fold turn UI

Call if I pick up a fd, gut or a set (raise a set)

Re: 77 line check
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Assuming a scenario in which button folds hero has 12.3% eq vs QQ, KK, AA. Thats about 3 outs

Now add AdKd and AQs and Hero has about 14.7% eq; about 3.5 outs.

In any case. Folding if it gets 3-bet is a mistake IMO. In particular considering the great implied vs KK and AA

[/ QUOTE ]correct me if im wrong, but you are talking about the equity for both the turn and the river, right? so hero would pay 3 small bets to win 17(10+5+2). Thats 3:17 + 4-5 implied.

my point is, u cant say hero has 12 % equity and needs to call ONE small bet with the pot offering 15. To make full use from those 13 % equity he needs to call 3

[/ QUOTE ]

No!

If you raise and BB 3-bets then you get 15:1 odds. To call that you need a little less than 3 outs to call. The decision at that point is only about that 1 bet. Not the 3-bets you put in in total on the street given that scenario.

Against QQ+ hero has about 3 outs

Add AdKd and AQs and he has about 3.5 outs.

I just used stove to figure out the number of outs as its difficult to count backdoor outs precisely when you want your average # of outs.

Re: 77 line check
 

I'm giving BB a wider range. At this point (on the flop) it's just a standard C-bet. AK-, JJ- don't have a lot of equity vs Hero's range once he raises. I think a 3bet from BB here is especially strong.

Maybe I overvalued the outs but I counted 2 set outs, and 2 1.5 out draws, discounting both by .5. If it's 3.5 then ok.

In any event we have enough to continue provided we get it HU. If we know BTN will play on then flop is a fold, imo. If BTN peels it is likely for the same reasons we are, i.e. bdsd, bdfd and in his case an overcard, in which case our fd is tainted badly and our 77 much less likely to hold up if good.

*edit* to clarify in light of other posts I'm not suggesting fold to 3bet

Re: 77 line check
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Assuming a scenario in which button folds hero has 12.3% eq vs QQ, KK, AA. Thats about 3 outs

Now add AdKd and AQs and Hero has about 14.7% eq; about 3.5 outs.

In any case. Folding if it gets 3-bet is a mistake IMO. In particular considering the great implied vs KK and AA

[/ QUOTE ]correct me if im wrong, but you are talking about the equity for both the turn and the river, right? so hero would pay 3 small bets to win 17(10+5+2). Thats 3:17 + 4-5 implied.

my point is, u cant say hero has 12 % equity and needs to call ONE small bet with the pot offering 15. To make full use from those 13 % equity he needs to call 3

[/ QUOTE ]

No!

If you raise and BB 3-bets then you get 15:1 odds. To call that you need a little less than 3 outs to call. The decision at that point is only about that 1 bet. Not the 3-bets you put in in total on the street given that scenario.

Against QQ+ hero has about 3 outs

Add AdKd and AQs and he has about 3.5 outs.

I just used stove to figure out the number of outs as its difficult to count backdoor outs precisely when you want your average # of outs.

[/ QUOTE ]I agree with 3 outs on the flop.

it was just pretty confusing bringing the overall equity in

Re: 77 line check
 

[ QUOTE ]
Then I'd fold turn UI

Call if I pick up a fd, gut or a set (raise a set)

[/ QUOTE ]

word.

Re: 77 line check
 

If you have x clean outs to the nuts where villain will have no redraw then your eq vs a random hand is

x/45 + ((45-x)/45)*(x/44)

Likewise if you stove your hand vs a range then you can use this equation to figure out your "clean" # of outs or average # of outs

x/45 + ((45-x)/45)*(x/44) = 12.6% is solved by aproxx 3.

So instead of making a tedious counting of outs you can just use stove and solve that equation in excel