huge pot, protect Q split pair, A kicker on flop
 

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (9 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">HERO raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, HERO calls, CO calls, SB calls.

Flop: (18 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">HERO ??</font>

Table is crazy, pple raises with junk preflop, an I assume I could have the best hand here.

Decision is between calling, or re-raising with my TPTK.

Re: huge pot, protect Q split pair, A kicker on flop
 

* g *

Preflop:
I might even cap this when in touch with the Force.

Flop:
You might as well 3-bet and try to blow the SB, BB and CO out of the big pot facing them with 24:3. BB probably missed with AK or is passive. If either UTG caps it's time go to call-down mode bar the board and action getting really ugly later.

Waiting to turn really doesn't help much to protect your hand. It's going to be 13-14BB anyway.

Re: huge pot, protect Q split pair, A kicker on flop
 

cap pf. 3 bet the flop.

Re: huge pot, protect Q split pair, A kicker on flop
 

Go ahead and 3bet it. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: huge pot, protect Q split pair, A kicker on flop
 

Cap preflop for value, even if the 3-bettor has TT, JJ AK, or even QQ you're still profiting from the cap.

Flop is an easy 3-bet for value, they could be doing this with flush draws, a weaker queen and the pot is so big you would like to fold out Ks, and bottom and middle pair.

Re: huge pot, protect Q split pair, A kicker on flop
 

cap pf for value.

3betting the flop for value is ok, but i'm tempted to call, see what everyone does, and then hopefully pop the turn. this will also save us a bet or two when the turn is a [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

Re: huge pot, protect Q split pair, A kicker on flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
the pot is so big you would like to fold out Ks, and bottom and middle pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

do you really think they're folding now that they've gotten here and made a pair?

Re: huge pot, protect Q split pair, A kicker on flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
cap pf for value.

3betting the flop for value is ok, but i'm tempted to call, see what everyone does, and then hopefully pop the turn. this will also save us a bet or two when the turn is a [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this line better. You act right after the flop raiser so you can face the field with two on a safe turn.

Re: huge pot, protect Q split pair, A kicker on flop
 

*grunch*

If the table is crazy and they’re playing all sorts of junk preflop (even raising with them), then I’m capping with Aqs preflop.
You have no reason to believe anyone has QQ+ or AK, so go for it!

On the flop: I still see no reason to believe we don’t have the best hand, so I’m 3-betting. If anything, it’ll fold the BB who was the preflop raiser, and that may clear some ace-outs if we’re behind.
If it gets capped, I’m still raising any non-club on the turn. Only when the (safe) turn gets 3-bet do I call down.

Re: huge pot, protect Q split pair, A kicker on flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
On the flop: I still see no reason to believe we don’t have the best hand, so I’m 3-betting. If anything, it’ll fold the BB who was the preflop raiser, and that may clear some ace-outs if we’re behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

We are not worried about better aces hitting here unless it is a runner-runner to top two with AK. Clearing ace-outs is not a reason to raise in this spot.

Re: huge pot, protect Q split pair, A kicker on flop
 

it only takes one maniac to screw up all kinds of situations for the traditional player.

Bottom line when a maniac goes nuts preflop you have to bet for value. This is the time when you should be figuring out what cards you can raise with because of equity over the ranges of the other players.

People forget that J10s for example has an equity edge over a lot of hands 3 and 4 way.

So you may limp utg with J10s but if UTG +1 the maniac raises and 2 or 3 others call you can easily justify raising for value.

After that its in the hands of the poker gods. With the hand above you have to bet the crap out of it and hope everyone misses their draws or you improve.

It's tough to lose big pots but when you consider the fact that you win more than your share of them it really is a simple choice to bet like crazy when you have equity edge against loose wild players.

Re: huge pot, protect Q split pair, A kicker on flop
 

Nice Table.

With such a juicy hand PF, I'd cap that trapping all those bets.

Pot exploded here and while i tend to agree with you that you have the best hand on the flop - i'd actually just call the flop and hope that UTG+1 is able to bet first on the turn. Then I'd spring to life. Obviously the turn card will be a factor and if it's two bets to you on the turn you need to re-evaluate your hand.

In short, I give up a little on the flop, to hopefully get it down to fewer opponents by showdown,.

Sarge[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Re: huge pot, protect Q split pair, A kicker on flop
 

Thanks for all the input. Yup, I should have capped preflop.

And I re-raised the flop, for protection and value

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (9 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">HERO raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, HERO calls, CO calls, SB calls.

Flop: (18 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">HERO 3-bets</font>, CO calls, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 caps</font>, HERO calls, CO calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (18 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, HERO calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, BB folds, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 3-bets</font>, HERO ??


I was fearing an AA, KK, and am more of in a call down mode when faced with the UTG+1 donk on the turn. Raising won't protect my hand here, and I don't want to spew too much if I'm behind. Prefer to call and see the action behind. But now I'm facing 2 bets when UTG+1 re-raises... Chances are that my Q outs are tainted, as it might give someone a boat, and any A that falls will give someone a set of As.

What will you do?

Re: huge pot, protect Q split pair, A kicker on flop
 

Concerning the turn decision:

(Btw, UTG+1 doesn't donk the turn, he was the last flop raiser/bettor. He leads the turn here.)

UTG, UTG+1, or CO probably do not have AA/KK here. None of them raised preflop. A weakling might have QQ but that's not likely either.

I think you can safely muck here, even in this megapot, and lose no sleep over it. (Even at 0.05/0.10 I think).

CO's called 3bet cold on the flop and then raises two players, the other the flop capper, and the other preflop raiser and flop 3-bettor. Unless CO is a total maniac your TPTK is way behind now.

Someone probably has a set or CO hit a gutshot with 67.


I don't mind calling the UTG+1's lead.

Re: huge pot, protect Q split pair, A kicker on flop
 

If the table is crazy as you say, just grit your teeth and call down. If one of the raising warriors has at least half a brain, fold even despite the insane odds you're getting. If you call now, you can't fold anywhere later on if a club doesn't hit and that might turn out to be quite a costly adventure. As you rightly pointed out, your outs are mostly crap.

Re: huge pot, protect Q split pair, A kicker on flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
Someone probably has a set or CO hit a gutshot with 67.

[/ QUOTE ]

CO raising out of nowhere looks so much like a 67 that got there, that I’m insta-folding after this, 3-bet or not.

Re: huge pot, protect Q split pair, A kicker on flop
 

[ QUOTE ]

Turn: (18 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, HERO calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, BB folds, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 3-bets</font>, HERO ??


[/ QUOTE ]

I'd say your damn near dead to the CO. He came out of nowhere calling 3bets on the flop. I can't see how an Ace or Queen is going to help you.

Muck - sucks but Muck

Sarge[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Re: huge pot, protect Q split pair, A kicker on flop
 

calling this turn is burning money, hope you didnt do it.

Re: huge pot, protect Q split pair, A kicker on flop
 

Alright guys, I folded to the turn 3-bet. It’s been getting too eeky. I don’t have the HH with me now, but I remember UTG+1 had a set of 4s. Can't remember what the other guys have.