200NL - Yell at me
 

Villain running like 16/12 over 1.5k+ hands. If you don't like preflop I can explain the logic later, but if you understand 3betting, it's pretty basic stuff. As for this specific hand though, I was mainly bored preflop. No relevant history, my image is pretty taggy.

Full Tilt Poker, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

BB: $365
UTG: $54.70
MP: $205
CO: $336.45
Hero (BTN): $200
SB: $98

Pre-Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BTN)
UTG folds, <font color="red">MP raises to $7</font>, CO folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $25</font>, 2 folds, MP calls $18

Flop: ($53) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
MP checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($53) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">MP bets $30</font>, Hero calls $30

River: ($113) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">MP bets $30</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $145 and is All-In</font>

Some thoughts and ranges:

Preflop, probably something like AQs+, TT-QQ. Turn, definetely pegged him on the same range, but obv more weighted towards the PP's. River, overs were out the door. Can he ever call with TT-QQ!? Does he ever have better than 1 pair?!

Flame away.

Re: 200NL - Yell at me
 

i think youre good often enough to just call the river.

Re: 200NL - Yell at me
 

i just call $30 -- but this is an interesting spot..if he views you as taggy, would he expect you to 3bet IP PF? -- prob not .. a set isn't super likely for you, but more likely than a straight imo, but i still doubt you fold JJ here.

it isn't terrible though

Re: 200NL - Yell at me
 

I played a hand very similar to this today. The only difference was that the HJ limped and I iso raised him with Q9s. He was similar in stats. Very tight typical muti tabler TAG. Anyways, he called and the flop was nearly identical (963 two tone maybe). When he checked to me I bet in order to induce a raise from what looks like a standard c-bet from what most likely missed this flop. He obliged and I 3bet. He dumped.

Point of my hijack is, I am not a fan of checking and inducing/play PC here. I would rather be aggressive at this pot on one street and then shut down given that you have position. Being aggressive early does two things. It may win the pot for you right there (a plus) or if he sticks around you were aggro on the cheap streets and can now have a good chance of seeing a free river.

Re: 200NL - Yell at me
 

I think this is pretty marginal in general since I only think he folds TT-JJ, but if he calls you it'll set up nice history/image for you.

Also i doubt he has better than one pair.

Re: 200NL - Yell at me
 

he's calling.

Re: 200NL - Yell at me
 

Will, you are probably gonna have to explain the logic of that 3bet to me [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img].
I think a call is soooo much better because his 3bet call range is really narrow.

Re: 200NL - Yell at me
 

[ QUOTE ]
he's calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just believe he can fold and he might! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 200NL - Yell at me
 

lol never works for me

Re: 200NL - Yell at me
 

have you ever thought about joining jesus christ and the latter day saints?

Re: 200NL - Yell at me
 

&lt;3 big love (and polygamy obv)

Re: 200NL - Yell at me
 

Gonna get looked up unless you were already ahead. There's a large overlay in the pot, and he knows he bet weak on a superficially scary board.

Re: 200NL - Yell at me
 

[ QUOTE ]
Will, you are probably gonna have to explain the logic of that 3bet to me [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]

You already explained it

[ QUOTE ]
his 3bet call range is really narrow.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: 200NL - Yell at me
 

fold preflop

Re: 200NL - Yell at me
 

I don’t like the shove on the river. What are you trying to represent?

If he’s a thinking player he knows that if you have a set or two pair you have to bet the turn because of the possible flush and str8 draw. A str8 with 76s doesn’t make sense because with the 4 on the turn a lot of actionkiller can come on the river (any 6, any 7, any T and any club ) so that 76s have to bet the turn as well. And a big pocket pair likes to see a cheap river, right?

The only hand that maybe makes sense is 77, but would you 3-bet 77 preflop, check on this flop behind and call a small turn bet?

Re: 200NL - Yell at me
 

I suppose if he's a scarred/thinking player and you read the bet as a blocker and think he can talk himself into thinking there are way too many two pair hands and sets + straight out there you might have the FE to fold out TT-QQ
I guess "no relative history" means he doesn't know that you'd 3bet a 54s though?

That small bet certainly doesn't seem like a hand that we beat by calling. I'd expect a bigger bet from like an AcQc

Re: 200NL - Yell at me
 

i like the hand sometimes i like to mix it up much the same way i can see what you are trying to do. i guessing u cringed and looked away until he folded the river right? (i hope he mucked)

Re: 200NL - Yell at me
 

I agree that we cant win the hand by calling the river. And I also think that most of the time villian has TT or JJ, but by the river shove hes getting 2.5 to 1 pot-odds, so he only needs to win 29% of the time. By shoving $145 into a $143 pot he has to fold 50% of the time assuming that we can only win if hes folding.

If he has 70% of the time TT+ and in that case he will call 50% of the time than you don’t have enough FE to make a shove profitably.

Re: 200NL - Yell at me
 

[ QUOTE ]
I played a hand very similar to this today. The only difference was that the HJ limped and I iso raised him with Q9s. He was similar in stats. Very tight typical muti tabler TAG. Anyways, he called and the flop was nearly identical (963 two tone maybe). When he checked to me I bet in order to induce a raise from what looks like a standard c-bet from what most likely missed this flop. He obliged and I 3bet. He dumped.

Point of my hijack is, I am not a fan of checking and inducing/play PC here. I would rather be aggressive at this pot on one street and then shut down given that you have position. Being aggressive early does two things. It may win the pot for you right there (a plus) or if he sticks around you were aggro on the cheap streets and can now have a good chance of seeing a free river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think betting this flop is pretty terrible. My hand is essentially a bluff-catcher on this flop.

Re: 200NL - Yell at me
 

If you believe your hand to be a bluff catcher on this flop, NOT betting is a pretty bad option as well as it narrows your range significantly and only succeeds in getting you 1 step towards a showdown where you feel you have zero equity.

Re: 200NL - Yell at me
 

i'd be suprised if he didn't snap call

Re: 200NL - Yell at me
 

i would just call the river, you are getting great odds, and even if you are not good very often you get to see how he plays the hand which is worth something

preflop is ok once in a while. flop check is fine. turn is fine too.

the title of your post sucks as it makes it seem like he called

Re: 200NL - Yell at me
 

[ QUOTE ]
Gonna get looked up unless you were already ahead. There's a large overlay in the pot, and he knows he bet weak on a superficially scary board.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: 200NL - Yell at me
 

I think any decent player calls pretty quick with anything that beats you here.

Re: 200NL - Yell at me
 

"I think betting this flop is pretty terrible. My hand is essentially a bluff-catcher on this flop."

Villan uses the bluff call a lot?

Re: 200NL - Yell at me
 

Willy,

"I think betting this flop is pretty terrible. My hand is essentially a bluff-catcher on this flop."

A bluff catcher or a semibluff catcher in which you get chased down a ton by not value betting?

Re: 200NL - Yell at me
 

You guys really think there's value in betting this flop?

Re: 200NL - Yell at me
 

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Re: 200NL - Yell at me
 

Read my first post again. If there is value in this hand it surely lies towards the beginning of the hand rather then the latter. If he is betting this hand by the river, you are cooked more often then not.

If you don't think there is value with this hand with this flop against this guy then you should absolutely 100% not be reraising him preflop. Simple as that.

Re: 200NL - Yell at me
 

[ QUOTE ]
Villain running like 16/12 over 1.5k+ hands. If you don't like preflop I can explain the logic later, but if you understand 3betting, it's pretty basic stuff. As for this specific hand though, I was mainly bored preflop. No relevant history, my image is pretty taggy.

Full Tilt Poker, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

BB: $365
UTG: $54.70
MP: $205
CO: $336.45
Hero (BTN): $200
SB: $98

Pre-Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BTN)
UTG folds, <font color="red">MP raises to $7</font>, CO folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $25</font>, 2 folds, MP calls $18

Flop: ($53) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
MP checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($53) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">MP bets $30</font>, Hero calls $30

River: ($113) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">MP bets $30</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $145 and is All-In</font>

Some thoughts and ranges:

Preflop, probably something like AQs+, TT-QQ. Turn, definetely pegged him on the same range, but obv more weighted towards the PP's. River, overs were out the door. Can he ever call with TT-QQ!? Does he ever have better than 1 pair?!

Flame away.

[/ QUOTE ]


There is no point in raising because you rep nothing. The only legitimate hand you can have here is 77 and only 77. So he's going to fold air and call with TT or better. Calling &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Raising.

Re: 200NL - Yell at me
 

[ QUOTE ]
[The only legitimate hand you can have here is 77 and only 77.

[/ QUOTE ]
77 and 66. But not much else.

Re: 200NL - Yell at me
 

Meh.

Question:

If you had the option to check it down the whole way after seeing this flop (villain agrees to this), would you take it?

Also, what would you do on this river with TT-QQ?

Re: 200NL - Yell at me
 

LOUD NOISES

just fold pre ldo

Re: 200NL - Yell at me
 

[ QUOTE ]
Will, you are probably gonna have to explain the logic of that 3bet to me [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img].
I think a call is soooo much better because his 3bet call range is really narrow.

[/ QUOTE ]


roflburgers

Re: 200NL - Yell at me
 

Villan will never fold the river. I would just fold this hand to his river river bet. He is almost always value towning an overpair here

Re: 200NL - Yell at me
 

I don't understand river at all at all at all.

Re: 200NL - Yell at me
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you believe your hand to be a bluff catcher on this flop, NOT betting is a pretty bad option as well as it narrows your range significantly and only succeeds in getting you 1 step towards a showdown where you feel you have zero equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

We have a bluff-catcher. Villain is unlikely to bluff by check/calling.

When you have a bluff-catcher, there's value in giving villains a chance to actually bluff.

That said, fold pre-flop FFS.

Re: 200NL - Yell at me
 

[ QUOTE ]
A bluff catcher or a semibluff catcher in which you get chased down a ton by not value betting?

[/ QUOTE ]

jc,

I think this is largely player and stakes dependant. At msnl against more aggro opponents betting is more likely to induce a bluff/semibluff but against this player at these stakes I think checking to induce is much better against his likely range.

Re: 200NL - Yell at me
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you believe your hand to be a bluff catcher on this flop, NOT betting is a pretty bad option as well as it narrows your range significantly and only succeeds in getting you 1 step towards a showdown where you feel you have zero equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

We have a bluff-catcher. Villain is unlikely to bluff by check/calling.

When you have a bluff-catcher, there's value in giving villains a chance to actually bluff.

That said, fold pre-flop FFS.

[/ QUOTE ]

You make a good point as always Bilbo, however the way the hand is played, it would appear that hero believes his hand is only good as a bluff. In that case, he pretty much has to bet the flop in order to salvage any bluff value he may believe he has.

For the record, I’m with you on the value of a bluff catcher being to catch bluffs, however (and perhaps I misinterpreted) I think what hero really meant is that his hand post flop is only good as a bluff (as if he truly believed it to be a bluff catcher, he would have simply called the river against any opponent with some semblance of hand reading skills).

Re: 200NL - Yell at me
 

[ QUOTE ]
You make a good point as always Bilbo, however the way the hand is played, it would appear that hero believes his hand is only good as a bluff. In that case, he pretty much has to bet the flop in order to salvage any bluff value he may believe he has.

For the record, I’m with you on the value of a bluff catcher being to catch bluffs, however (and perhaps I misinterpreted) I think what hero really meant is that his hand post flop is only good as a bluff (as if he truly believed it to be a bluff catcher, he would have simply called the river against any opponent with some semblance of hand reading skills).


[/ QUOTE ]

He only made this assessment after villain lead both the turn and the river. Obviously if villain leads turn and checks river he would expect his hand to be good. I don't think this is the correct assessment but I'm pretty sure op considered his hand a bluff catcher on the flop/turn and then on the river decided he had no showdown value.