gettin silly again
 

villain is another TAG reg, solid/well known winner.

been finding myself in a ton of stupid spots lately... am I the only one who does [censored] like this??

Full Tilt Poker, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

SB: $280.20
BB: $364.70
UTG: $198.75
Hero (CO): $200
BTN: $205.20

Pre-Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (CO)
UTG folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $8</font>, BTN folds, SB calls $7, BB folds

Flop: ($18) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($18) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $16</font>, Hero calls $16

River: ($50) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $28</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $108</font>

Re: gettin silly again
 

wow. u got balls...it's probably not terrible. alot of draws missed. i'd probably just make a slightly bigger than miniraise on the river, i think it folds the same.

Re: gettin silly again
 

fwiw, if u had a nut draw, i might just call the river.

Re: gettin silly again
 

I think it's more likely he has a strong hand that is calling, that bet small because he put you on a smaller PP that he wanted to call because of flop, rather than him having a missed draw and betting this river so small.

I do crap like this occassionally, and it sometimes works, but not often enough IMO.

Re: gettin silly again
 

Ugh, what made hand are you playing this way that's suddenly raising the river? Quad tens? I'd think you'd get looked up just on general principles.

Re: gettin silly again
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ugh, what made hand are you playing this way that's suddenly raising the river? Quad tens? I'd think you'd get looked up just on general principles.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tx? given I chkd the flop and called his close to psb on the turn, it's totally plausible for my hand to be exactly that.

Re: gettin silly again
 

looks like you missed your draw.

Re: gettin silly again
 

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looks like your opponent missed his draw.

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This hand is played fine if you are sure he isn't going to look you up light (A high type hands). Because you aren't repping anything except a set. But that doesn't mean he can still call you...

Re: gettin silly again
 

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looks like your opponent missed his draw.

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This hand is played fine if you are sure he isn't going to look you up light (A high type hands). Because you aren't repping anything except a set. But that doesn't mean he can still call you...

[/ QUOTE ]most regs arent going to bluff so small. This is a VB from a missed flop c/r or backdoored trips far more often than a missed draw imo.

Re: gettin silly again
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ugh, what made hand are you playing this way that's suddenly raising the river? Quad tens? I'd think you'd get looked up just on general principles.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tx? given I chkd the flop and called his close to psb on the turn, it's totally plausible for my hand to be exactly that.

[/ QUOTE ]

But the river T doesn't change anything. He's not playing overpairs this way, and you were already ahead of underpairs that aren't sets if you had a T, and sets would still beat you, and 2-pair for Villain is going to be really rare I think. Unless you think he thinks you don't realize all this and said "zomg trips I raise!" [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: gettin silly again
 

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Ugh, what made hand are you playing this way that's suddenly raising the river? Quad tens? I'd think you'd get looked up just on general principles.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tx? given I chkd the flop and called his close to psb on the turn, it's totally plausible for my hand to be exactly that.

[/ QUOTE ]

But the river T doesn't change anything. He's not playing overpairs this way, and you were already ahead of underpairs that aren't sets if you had a T, and sets would still beat you, and 2-pair for Villain is going to be really rare I think. Unless you think he thinks you don't realize all this and said "zomg trips I raise!" [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

ur post is confusing... are you saying you shouldnt be raising the river with Tx? cause I think thats what you're saying.

Re: gettin silly again
 

[ QUOTE ]


ur post is confusing... are you saying you shouldnt be raising the river with Tx? cause I think thats what you're saying.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct. Unless there is leveling going on. Cause if you are both playing ABC, what worse hand is calling? What better hand is folding?

Re: gettin silly again
 

cbet flop

Re: gettin silly again
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


ur post is confusing... are you saying you shouldnt be raising the river with Tx? cause I think thats what you're saying.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct. Unless there is leveling going on. Cause if you are both playing ABC, what worse hand is calling? What better hand is folding?

[/ QUOTE ]earlier you said you would look him up just on general principles.

Not raising trip tens here would be ridiculous.

Re: gettin silly again
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


ur post is confusing... are you saying you shouldnt be raising the river with Tx? cause I think thats what you're saying.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct. Unless there is leveling going on. Cause if you are both playing ABC, what worse hand is calling? What better hand is folding?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course no hand better than QT is folding. But are you insinuating that anyone folds JT or T9? Sometimes JJ calls you. Sometimes just a stubborn hand like 99 that says "your line is nuts or air".

Re: gettin silly again
 

Pineapple,

[ QUOTE ]
ur post is confusing... are you saying you shouldnt be raising the river with Tx? cause I think thats what you're saying.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Correct. Unless there is leveling going on. Cause if you are both playing ABC, what worse hand is calling? What better hand is folding?

[/ QUOTE ]

Plenty of inferior hands call. 8x,99,Tx all call. And if we did have Tx are goal is not to fold out better.

Nazahl,

Your play is so much better if the board read K53 T T. I hope you understand why...

Re: gettin silly again
 

I'm tired/semi drunk but I'm assuming its cause there are a lot more 8x hands in his coldcalling range than Kx? and I could be value raising decent kings I decided to check back on the flop? essentially narrowing his calling range and widening my perceived value raising range...

Re: gettin silly again
 

no, because he is prob vb a K.

but not necessarily better jlocdog. I hope you understand why [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: gettin silly again
 

[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]


ur post is confusing... are you saying you shouldnt be raising the river with Tx? cause I think thats what you're saying.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct. Unless there is leveling going on. Cause if you are both playing ABC, what worse hand is calling? What better hand is folding?

[/ QUOTE ]earlier you said you would look him up just on general principles.

Not raising trip tens here would be ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

If Hero is capable of bluffing, don't you think Villain would realize it, and realize that chance of bluff&gt; chance of random trip Tens? Plus Hero is just flat-out beat much of the time.

If Hero is not capable of bluffing here, he shouldn't be raising with trip tens. Hence the "ABC" part that you overlooked. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: gettin silly again
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


ur post is confusing... are you saying you shouldnt be raising the river with Tx? cause I think thats what you're saying.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct. Unless there is leveling going on. Cause if you are both playing ABC, what worse hand is calling? What better hand is folding?

[/ QUOTE ]

oh my jesus

[x] ignore

this post just blew my mind

Re: gettin silly again
 

[ QUOTE ]
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ur post is confusing... are you saying you shouldnt be raising the river with Tx? cause I think thats what you're saying.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct. Unless there is leveling going on. Cause if you are both playing ABC, what worse hand is calling? What better hand is folding?

[/ QUOTE ]

oh my jesus

[x] ignore

this post just blew my mind

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice contribution. The high level of thought and logical explanations on this forum continue to impress me.

Re: gettin silly again
 

The fact that you do stuff like this a lot is good. This particular spot I don't really like though. You probably bet an overpair on this flop (and/or raise the turn). Anything stronger than one pair, the same. You're just not representing much here except maybe 9T or something. Your standard TAG will probably autofold one pair to a river raise anyway, but if villain is thinking I think you get looked up by any pair and some ace highs.

Re: gettin silly again
 

[ QUOTE ]
no, because he is prob vb a K.

but not necessarily better jlocdog. I hope you understand why [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

what?

Re: gettin silly again
 

more likely to bet a K then an 8, hence more likely to have a T on 853TT

Re: gettin silly again
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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ur post is confusing... are you saying you shouldnt be raising the river with Tx? cause I think thats what you're saying.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct. Unless there is leveling going on. Cause if you are both playing ABC, what worse hand is calling? What better hand is folding?

[/ QUOTE ]

oh my jesus

[x] ignore

this post just blew my mind

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice contribution. The high level of thought and logical explanations on this forum continue to impress me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not trying to start a flame war with anyone, but I usually call people out when they make ridiculous statements. I don't think anyone in the universe folds any ten if you raise the river, and frequently say [censored] it and call with a pair.

Citing me out in terms of content in posts is pretty ridiculous as well, but I'll let all the rational people elaborate.

Re: gettin silly again
 

gotta c-bet that.

pf is fine.

villain is repping a 10. what are u repping?

Re: gettin silly again
 

US,

"no, because he is prob vb a K.

but not necessarily better jlocdog. I hope you understand why"

Actually Nazahl was right there. It is far more likely that you would check behind with a hand like Kx as to mix up your play since you fear less cards. If you hit the 853 flop you would almost always bet it. The difference in flops is that you can now represent more then just set/air.

As far as it being better...it is directly because of this point.

Re: gettin silly again
 

completely disagree, checking KQ is pretty bad there, as is raising KJ on the river. you can rep a T better on the 853 (well a little bit better anyway) as you are more likely to cbet the K high

it sucks on either board though

Re: gettin silly again
 

I frequently check behind with TP when it is a high one or my kicker is above my pair, ie. KQ on a K53 board or AJ on a J82 board. I think mixing this into my play has been very good for my game. It allows me to not get exploited when I don't think a c-bet is optimal nor do I want to c/r because i may either want to attempt to play a small pot OR a big one and a c/r may just end the hand too early. Also, I don't agree OP can rep a T here with any credence. Unless his image is one of being extremely weak tight. Doesn't seem that way.

I am going to say that this bluff was successful and villain had diamonds or some crap like 67.

Re: gettin silly again
 

more likely to have T on the 8 high board, but still unlikely

as a default play checking back KQ on a K53 board is bad. You're losing value, simple as that. I could see a checking being good sometimes, but usually a bet will be better.

Re: gettin silly again
 

Last I will comment on this since we have reached an impasse. But do know that checking back KQ on a K53 board is not bad. If one continues to always fall back on default plans, one will always play hands in the same manner. Then ones defaults are what is going to cost him money.

Thinking outside the box and being unorthodox in spots like these will do wonders for your image and make you appear to be mixing up your play alot when really you are just capitalizing on a great situation. It will also give much more credibility to your c-bets when you have Q9s on a 853 board.

Re: gettin silly again
 

[ QUOTE ]
Last I will comment on this since we have reached an impasse. But do know that checking back KQ on a K53 board is not bad. If one continues to always fall back on default plans, one will always play hands in the same manner. Then ones defaults are what is going to cost him money.

Thinking outside the box and being unorthodox in spots like these will do wonders for your image and make you appear to be mixing up your play alot when really you are just capitalizing on a great situation. It will also give much more credibility to your c-bets when you have Q9s on a 853 board.

[/ QUOTE ]

coach me?

villain thought it over for a few and folded btw

Re: gettin silly again
 

raise smaller

Re: gettin silly again
 

betting is usually better then checking. balancing is obv important (in some cases!), but betting should be the default play. We can agree on that, right? Because the next part is important. Checking only for the sake of mixing it up is bad, it's irrational play and should be avoided. There should be a reason to your unorthodox play. The dynamics of the game, your image and the specific tendencies could well make a check good in a particular spot, but blindly mashing buttons ("mixing it up") is bad. If you have a rational thought process to your game not only can you have a nice mixed strategy to throw off your opponents, but you will be doing it at the correct times.

Re: gettin silly again
 

Obviously you haven't read what I have said or atleast what is implied. He is mixing up his play to
a)make his c-bets less exploitable,
b)induce bets from hands that would normally check,
c)give off a unorthodox image of play which in turn makes it hard to get bluffed/thin valued,
d)have more control over the size of the pots you enter because your c-bet % will now decrease if you so choose,
e)allow for more aggression on later streets because of these smaller pots
f)enable you to utilize the donk if you so choose because of your now unorthodox image,
g)blah blah blah....

No one is jut 'mixing up their play' because a book says to do so. There are obvious reasons one would do so. The examples I gave are just a few in which it may be a good time for it. When the hand is in your favor is always best rather then trying to manufacture a play just for the sake of mixing it up.

Re: gettin silly again
 

you're missing what i'm saying actually. i know all the advantages to checking and completely understand why it is sometimes good. However, next time you decide to check top pair ask yourself "why is it better to check here then my last chance?" That's what I'm getting at. Most players don't, and because of this don't really know why they are doing what they are doing, in the sense that they have no rational thought process behind mixing it up, they just do it on a whim. Or in other words, they do it because of some random emotion. Any emotion at a poker table is bad. They know the advantages of mixing it up, but not why they are doing it at this specific time.

Re: gettin silly again
 

wow ssnl has gotten pretty mean/stupid lately...

cbet flop most of the time...

raise turn as played...

meh on the river raise, i don't understand this thread.

Re: gettin silly again
 

raising the turn is really bad

Re: gettin silly again
 

[ QUOTE ]
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ur post is confusing... are you saying you shouldnt be raising the river with Tx? cause I think thats what you're saying.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct. Unless there is leveling going on. Cause if you are both playing ABC, what worse hand is calling? What better hand is folding?

[/ QUOTE ]

oh my jesus

[x] ignore

this post just blew my mind

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice contribution. The high level of thought and logical explanations on this forum continue to impress me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not trying to start a flame war with anyone, but I usually call people out when they make ridiculous statements. I don't think anyone in the universe folds any ten if you raise the river, and frequently say [censored] it and call with a pair.

Citing me out in terms of content in posts is pretty ridiculous as well, but I'll let all the rational people elaborate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, I'm just asking for some logic, not random "ZOMG!!1!!1!11!" posts. But since nobody bothered to actually read my posts apparently, I'll stop there.

Re: gettin silly again
 

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raising the turn is really bad

[/ QUOTE ]

clearly raising what's often a bluff with equity against a call is really bad...