Is Clinton as pushy as we think?
 

Tribune Column

I think the meat of the column is in this passage:

[ QUOTE ]
Here's the thing though. I find that I can't name a single female national political figure I do like--not respect, not agree with, but "like." Oh, I can name you many men who, their politics aside, strike me as likable: McCain, Bill Clinton, John Edwards, even cranky old Bob Dole.

But women? Not so much. Nancy Pelosi, Janet Reno, Condoleezza Rice, Madeleine Albright. I cannot see myself -- we are speaking metaphorically here -- cuddling up to any of them. They all seem formidable, off-putting, cold.

Which suggests the problem here is not so much them as me. And, if I may be so bold, we. As in, we seem unable to synthesize the idea that a woman can be smart, businesslike, demanding, capable, in charge and also warm.

[/ QUOTE ]
The jist of it is that many of the negative impressions we have of Clinton and other powerful women are not the result of their actual traits, but rather lingering sexism. We have a hard time imagining women in charge and thus when confronted with one resort to crass descriptions. So the next time you choose to judge Clinton or another powerful women harshly, please examine whether that judgment is justified.

Re: Is Clinton as pushy as we think?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Tribune Column

I think the meat of the column is in this passage:

[ QUOTE ]
Here's the thing though. I find that I can't name a single female national political figure I do like--not respect, not agree with, but "like." Oh, I can name you many men who, their politics aside, strike me as likable: McCain, Bill Clinton, John Edwards, even cranky old Bob Dole.

But women? Not so much. Nancy Pelosi, Janet Reno, Condoleezza Rice, Madeleine Albright. I cannot see myself -- we are speaking metaphorically here -- cuddling up to any of them. They all seem formidable, off-putting, cold.

Which suggests the problem here is not so much them as me. And, if I may be so bold, we. As in, we seem unable to synthesize the idea that a woman can be smart, businesslike, demanding, capable, in charge and also warm.

[/ QUOTE ]
The jist of it is that many of the negative impressions we have of Clinton and other powerful women are not the result of their actual traits, but rather lingering sexism. We have a hard time imagining women in charge and thus when confronted with one resort to crass descriptions. So the next time you choose to judge Clinton or another powerful women harshly, please examine whether that judgment is justified.

[/ QUOTE ]

*thinks about it*

*thinks about it*

Nope, she's still in the pockets of big buisnesses, and I hate her. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Is Clinton as pushy as we think?
 

interesting link

I think the unlikable women thesis holds up better for politicians than powerful women in general. That suggests that maybe it has something to do with the type of women who succeed in politics in addition to latent gender prejudice.

Re: Is Clinton as pushy as we think?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Tribune Column

I think the meat of the column is in this passage:

[ QUOTE ]
Here's the thing though. I find that I can't name a single female national political figure I do like--not respect, not agree with, but "like." Oh, I can name you many men who, their politics aside, strike me as likable: McCain, Bill Clinton, John Edwards, even cranky old Bob Dole.

But women? Not so much. Nancy Pelosi, Janet Reno, Condoleezza Rice, Madeleine Albright. I cannot see myself -- we are speaking metaphorically here -- cuddling up to any of them. They all seem formidable, off-putting, cold.

Which suggests the problem here is not so much them as me. And, if I may be so bold, we. As in, we seem unable to synthesize the idea that a woman can be smart, businesslike, demanding, capable, in charge and also warm.

[/ QUOTE ]
The jist of it is that many of the negative impressions we have of Clinton and other powerful women are not the result of their actual traits, but rather lingering sexism. We have a hard time imagining women in charge and thus when confronted with one resort to crass descriptions. So the next time you choose to judge Clinton or another powerful women harshly, please examine whether that judgment is justified.

[/ QUOTE ]

people who make it that far in politics are almost always unlikeable people to those who aren't sheep and prefer not being pandered to. some men can make it through as a breeze so sometimes get to skip or gloss over this process.

women who make it that far often do extra pandering to make up for their unlikely political success. I would say this accounts for why female political figures are almost always unlikeable.

Re: Is Clinton as pushy as we think?
 

Do you feel the same way about Clinton as you do about Margaret Thatcher or Golda Meir?

Re: Is Clinton as pushy as we think?
 

Oh, woops, pusHy, I misread that.. nm.

Re: Is Clinton as pushy as we think?
 

[ QUOTE ]
interesting link

I think the unlikable women thesis holds up better for politicians than powerful women in general. That suggests that maybe it has something to do with the type of women who succeed in politics in addition to latent gender prejudice.

[/ QUOTE ]

I definitely think all the "Shrillary" comments are due to some latent sexism myself. You can see this type of behavior in sports where we expect leaders to be brash, violent and outspoken (even at the cost of finesse and intelligence) and their wives to be behind-the-scenes and softspoken.

Re: Is Clinton as pushy as we think?
 

This has it all mixed up. The real thing IMO is that women have to be pretty off-putting and cold in order to be successful in a "man's world".

Re: Is Clinton as pushy as we think?
 

[ QUOTE ]
This has it all mixed up. The real thing IMO is that women have to be pretty off-putting and cold in order to be successful in a "man's world".

[/ QUOTE ]

or they can just put out

Re: Is Clinton as pushy as we think?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, I can name you many men who, their politics aside, strike me as likable: McCain, Bill Clinton, John Edwards, even cranky old Bob Dole.

[/ QUOTE ]
McCain is likeable??

Re: Is Clinton as pushy as we think?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Oh, I can name you many men who, their politics aside, strike me as likable: McCain, Bill Clinton, John Edwards, even cranky old Bob Dole.

[/ QUOTE ]
McCain is likeable??

[/ QUOTE ]
and Madeleine Albright isn't?

I do agree with the point of the OP, though. I disagree with ton of Clinton's ideas, but I still cringe every time somebody calls her "Shrillary."

Re: Is Clinton as pushy as we think?
 

Hillary impresses me as being pushier than the other women in politics whom you mentioned.

Re: Is Clinton as pushy as we think?
 

I never viewed her as being "pushy" but that's probably a good quality to have in running an administration.

Re: Is Clinton as pushy as we think?
 

When I was 9 I realized prime ministers could be men. I think it is about time you people get a female president, though I'm not saying it should be Clinton. Politics is politics and when you disagree with the message the gender of the candidate is of no concern.

I am however saying that for an outsider it does seem you like your country has an enormous gender inequality problem.

Re: Is Clinton as pushy as we think?
 

[ QUOTE ]

I am however saying that for an outsider it does seem you like your country has an enormous gender inequality problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

The gender inequality is a lot less in the USA than in poker.

Re: Is Clinton as pushy as we think?
 

Hillary Clinton is shrill...she sounds like my ex-mother-in-law, only more nagging.

Condi Rice doesn't strike me as cold, and neither does Nanci Pelosi. Hillary Clinton's problem is not that she's a woman...it's that she's Hillary Clinton.

Re: Is Clinton as pushy as we think?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I am however saying that for an outsider it does seem you like your country has an enormous gender inequality problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

The gender inequality is a lot less in the USA than in poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

The number of women in politics (especially senate and congress) is very low compared to many other countries.

Re: Is Clinton as pushy as we think?
 

Chance that a woman is lying to you or trying to manipulate you = A

Chance that a politician is lying to you or trying to manipulate you = B

A+B > B

Re: Is Clinton as pushy as we think?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Chance that a woman is lying to you or trying to manipulate you = A

Chance that a politician is lying to you or trying to manipulate you = B

A+B > B

[/ QUOTE ]

Do we tolerate overt sexism? The exact same thing could be said about a man.

Re: Is Clinton as pushy as we think?
 

men never lie, we're frigging saints. that's why we weren't punished with painful childbirths.

Re: Is Clinton as pushy as we think?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Chance that a woman is lying to you or trying to manipulate you = A

Chance that a politician is lying to you or trying to manipulate you = B

A+B > B

[/ QUOTE ]

Do we tolerate overt sexism? The exact same thing could be said about a man.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok you're right, but you don't actually support Hillary, do you?

Re: Is Clinton as pushy as we think?
 

For the record, my opposition to Hillary and my hatred of women are completely separate issues.

Re: Is Clinton as pushy as we think?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I am however saying that for an outsider it does seem you like your country has an enormous gender inequality problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

The gender inequality is a lot less in the USA than in poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

The number of women in politics (especially senate and congress) is very low compared to many other countries.

[/ QUOTE ]

Somehow, Pakistan has elected a female president, and we haven't. How is that possible? Aren't muslim countries supposed to be more sexist than western countries?

Re: Is Clinton as pushy as we think?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Chance that a woman is lying to you or trying to manipulate you = A

Chance that a politician is lying to you or trying to manipulate you = B

A+B > B

[/ QUOTE ]

Do we tolerate overt sexism? The exact same thing could be said about a man.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok you're right, but you don't actually support Hillary, do you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course not, but it has nothing to do with her being a her.

Re: Is Clinton as pushy as we think?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Somehow, Pakistan has elected a female president, and we haven't. How is that possible? Aren't muslim countries supposed to be more sexist than western countries?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it´s fair to say that Pakistan is far more sexist than the US even though they have had a female prime minister. Benazir Bhutto gained much of her popularity from being the oldest child of the popular Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, but it is certainly interresting that a muslim country actually elected a female leader. But there are some modernity in muslim countries that we dont see as clearly here in the west, a country like Iran has a high percentage of female students and also a decent science community.

Im not sure how other European countries are, but in Norway there are rules that ensure a pretty even distribution of males and females in the parliament, each party has to have at least 40% women on their ballots in an election. Im not sure if thats an approach that would be popular in the US, as it limits the freedom of a party to choose their own representatives.

Re: Is Clinton as pushy as we think?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Aren't muslim countries supposed to be more sexist than western countries?


[/ QUOTE ]

Nearly all Muslim countries rank amongst the bottom of gender inequality... US is somewhere in the early 20's.

IMO, people don’t hate Clinton because she is a woman, but like many others have said because she is cold, manipulative, opportunist politician.

Re: Is Clinton as pushy as we think?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Chance that a human is lying to you or trying to manipulate you = A

Chance that a politician is lying to you or trying to manipulate you = B

A+B > B

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

Re: Is Clinton as pushy as we think?
 

I'm buying this for the Hillary haters.

http://cdn.overstock.com/images/products/L10789890.jpg

http://www.overstock.com/Gifts-Flowers/H...124659&fp=F

Re: Is Clinton as pushy as we think?
 

[ QUOTE ]
But women? Not so much. Nancy Pelosi, Janet Reno, Condoleezza Rice, Madeleine Albright. I cannot see myself -- we are speaking metaphorically here -- cuddling up to any of them. They all seem formidable, off-putting, cold.

Which suggests the problem here is not so much them as me. And, if I may be so bold, we. As in, we seem unable to synthesize the idea that a woman can be smart, businesslike, demanding, capable, in charge and also warm.

[/ QUOTE ]

Only a typical liberal-guilt-ridden-male would fall for the specious reasoning of this article.

So, if I don't like Hillary, it's my fault huh?? What a load of psycho-babble horse-[censored].

Sounds like the author really wants a Democrat to win and is afraid that people won't like Hillary because she's a horrible person, so might as well blame the voters....it's obviously their fault for not liking Hillary their saviour.

Re: Is Clinton as pushy as we think?
 

[ QUOTE ]
This has it all mixed up. The real thing IMO is that women have to be pretty off-putting and cold in order to be successful in a "man's world".

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure if you're joking or not, but I think this has some truth to it. The scale on which women in politics are judged is a very fickle one. They're either too soft and girly to be electable or too much of an ice princess.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Oh, I can name you many men who, their politics aside, strike me as likable: McCain, Bill Clinton, John Edwards, even cranky old Bob Dole.

[/ QUOTE ]
McCain is likeable??

[/ QUOTE ]

He was.. once. Give me 2000 McCain vs 2008 Obama for this next election and I'll be in heaven.

[ QUOTE ]
I never viewed her as being "pushy" but that's probably a good quality to have in running an administration.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here I'm reminded of the current administration, having Alberto Gonzalez in a hospital room, pestering a bedridden... well, nvm that.

[ QUOTE ]
I am however saying that for an outsider it does seem you like your country has an enormous gender inequality problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's a Morrissey line about America:

"In America, the land of the free they say,
And of opportunity, in a just and a truthful way,
But where the president is never black, female or gay"

[ QUOTE ]
Hillary Clinton is shrill...she sounds like my ex-mother-in-law, only more nagging.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I guess it's a good thing your mother-in-law can have only so many in-laws..?

[ QUOTE ]
For the record, my opposition to Hillary and my hatred of women are completely separate issues.

[/ QUOTE ]

You, sir, are a saint!

[ QUOTE ]
Only a typical liberal-guilt-ridden-blah-blah-blah

[/ QUOTE ]

It all turns to orange Rush Limbaugh/Fox News repeated wax in my ears. Seriously, if you took away the phrase "only a liberal", how would people like you ever be able to start a sentence or thought?

[ QUOTE ]
Somehow, Pakistan has elected a female president, and we haven't. How is that possible? Aren't muslim countries supposed to be more sexist than western countries?

[/ QUOTE ]

You have to realize, in those full body burkas, it's hard to tell someone's gender. Perhaps they didn't know they were voting for a woman?

I'm still upset that France didn't elect that hottie during their last election.

Re: Is Clinton as pushy as we think?
 

My view is that having such a low % of participation of women in political roles is a big waste of resources. More women and more competition to get the overall quality up. It is after all, half the populace (and usually a little more).

Re: Is Clinton as pushy as we think?
 

In times of relative stability, we tend to elect our presidents based on our idealized selves and twisted to form by the era in which we live. We elected Ronald Reagan because he represented the maturation, solidity and stability we sought to affect after the idealism of the sixties and the subsequent crash and burn into Vietnam and Watergate. We elected Bush 1 purely because of the comfort level and continuity he represented. We elected Bill Clinton (over the stuffier but arguably more "electable" challengers) as cultural blowback against conservatism's inherent social repression; we wanted to party like Bubba obviously partied. We elected Gore (look it up, people) because it was time to grow back up.

We will probably elect Hillary, because we see where the blind, uber-patriotic rah-rah has gotten us, and now need the cold rationale of the stern but fair school marm to focus our energies.

That said, in none of the men mentioned, even though their chief character definition was ambition, was calculation and manipulation considered a bad thing. In fact, it was subtly celebrated. I'm sure a lot of people wouldn't vote for Hillary if she was male, and dislike her policies as well as her aura. But the negatives that keep being brought up? Yeah, it is lingering sexism. Hell, I don't even think that's a newsflash as much as an underlying theme.

And I will stand against sexism whenever possible, because it's a great way to impress the babes....

Oh, and Low Key? Great post, but once you quote Morrissey, the credibility goes bye-bye.