Getting levelled in 3 bet pots
 

This is probably going to make for a crappy thread, because its so situation/flow dependant, but maybe it'll generate some good theory discussion, here goes anyway.

Villain is a good aggressive regular, 19/16/5. He definitely understands bluff pushing in 3 bet pots and polarised ranges. Is this EVER a call? And with this is mind that a player can make these moves, does checking behind become optimal?

Party Poker, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

MP: $328
CO: $172.45
BTN: $156.70
SB: $201
Hero (BB): $200
UTG: $175

Pre-Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BB)
4 folds, <font color="red">SB raises to $8</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $24</font>, SB calls $16

Flop: ($48) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
SB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $38</font>, <font color="red">SB raises to $177 and is All-In</font>, Hero folds

Results: $124 Pot

Re: Getting levelled in 3 bet pot
 

Knowing that villain knows you are c-betting with air, I guess this could be a call sometimes, but I'll let better players discuss that.

Does checking behind become optimal?
If you don't c-bet this flop, and air comes on the turn, I believe this will give villain another chance to steal the pot from you. But, this will also keep the pot smaller giving villain less incentive to steal the pot on later streets.

If villain has a history to crai on boards like this, maybe checking behind would be the best line here, hoping to catch TPTK, or to check down a small pot.

Re: Getting levelled in 3 bet pot
 

I check behind here a lot. Almost no one folds 99+ to one barrel and I'm not willing to bluff-shove the turn UI.

Re: Getting levelled in 3 bet pot
 

i dont think you can call this. you might check the flop, though i d only do that if he really is very aggressive and shoves over here very often. his raise is pretty big and if it s a bluff it has to work a large % of the time to make bet folding this hand exploitable.

Re: Getting levelled in 3 bet pot
 

His range is a lot wider than big pairs and AK. Its my range thats probably polarised.

Re: Getting levelled in 3 bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
i dont think you can call this. you might check the flop, though i d only do that if he really is very aggressive and shoves over here very often. his raise is pretty big and if it s a bluff it has to work a large % of the time to make bet folding this hand exploitable.

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This play is pretty standard for people who play a lot of 3 bet pots. It closes the action and folds out a good % of my range (hopefully). His range is probably any pair+, any draw and air.

Re: Getting levelled in 3 bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
His range is a lot wider than big pairs and AK. Its my range thats probably polarised.

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Okay, this is not meant to be mean at all, but this is completely wrong and the opposite is closer to being true than this.

If you 3 bet a lot you should have a lot of trash in your range, which you'll be cbetting often making it nowhere near polarized.

He probably isn't calling 3 bets very often, isn't probably check/raising marginal hands which makes it quite polarized.

If he's not check/raising mid pairs for value his range is either a set, or AA/KK/QQ which is very polarized. So essentially his range for calling a 3 bet and checkraising this flop is soooooooooooooooo much smaller than your range for 3betting and cbetting.

I think you seriously need to hire a decent game theoretical coach.

Re: Getting levelled in 3 bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]

He probably isn't calling 3 bets very often, isn't probably check/raising marginal hands which makes it quite polarized.

If he's not check/raising mid pairs for value his range is either a set, or AA/KK/QQ which is very polarized. So essentially his range for calling a 3 bet and checkraising this flop is soooooooooooooooo much smaller than your range for 3betting and cbetting.


[/ QUOTE ]

I stated in the OP that this is very much not the case.

Re: Getting levelled in 3 bet pot
 

Also, i should say that we have no history together, but he probably datamines. This is why i say my range is polarised. I only know about his ability to bluff push through looking over hand histories.

Re: Getting levelled in 3 bet pot
 

I call here a lot, I think he's going to be drawing, or we have 6 outs to hit. We're never crushed, it's good for meta, etc. But I also think checking here is fine, too. But I don't do that very often since I wouldn't with big pairs on this type of board.

Re: Getting levelled in 3 bet pot
 

FWIW, i snap call here with TT+

Re: Getting levelled in 3 bet pot
 

so say your range is polarized to like 99-aa, ak,aq or sth you just have to call with the pairs and fold ak,aq here.

Re: Getting levelled in 3 bet pot
 

If he's calling 3 bets then checkraising a lot of flops with all kinds of suited connectors, and any pair, then why are you even cbetting here if you're not bet/calling?

I just think you're overestimating the amount of times a tag does this though. My vpip is sometimes double this dudes, and I don't even do this often.

edit: in any case you're range here is larger and hence less polarized than his, and this isn't even debatable unless he is the craziest losingest tag of all time and you're the nittiest 3bettor ever

Re: Getting levelled in 3 bet pot
 

a)because air makes up a very small % of his bluff pushing range, and he flops air a lot
b)I'd never check the flop here with an overpair, and it also lets him take it away from me on the turn the vast majority of the time.
c)this is BoB, which i think alters the dynamic drastically.

[ QUOTE ]
I just think you're overestimating the amount of times a tag does this though. My vpip is sometimes double this dudes, and I don't even do this often.

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I take huge issue with this in general, but people quote vpip/pfr far too often when really they say nothing about post flop tendencies. I'm also fairly certain you're American so you don't play in these games, but maybe somebody like FoldEqu1ty or sh58 can weigh in on the number of people on Party with similar stats who play a lot of 3 bet pots and are VERY capable of making these type of moves. The games on party are so hugely different than any other site right now, there is a ton of 3 and 4 betting going on preflop, and with that the postflop game has evolved.

Re: Getting levelled in 3 bet pot
 

You need like 38% equity to make the call.

I could think of the following range for him: TT+ for the pairs, Sets, AK/AQ for the bluff, 76s for the semibluff. Against this range you have 40% equity.

But obviously the range is pretty much tilted towards bluffing type hands (AK/AQ/76 make up like 40% of this range). But anyway, with your datamined 'reads' a call might not be bad at all.

And against a decent aggressive player a check on this flop is superior imo. You might try to check those flops with big overpairs too every once in a while.

Re: Getting levelled in 3 bet pot
 

check behind flop all day especially against this player. but i don't think many players are folding middle pair on this board anyways.

Re: Getting levelled in 3 bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
a)because air makes up a very small % of his bluff pushing range, and he flops air a lot
b)I'd never check the flop here with an overpair, and it also lets him take it away from me on the turn the vast majority of the time.
c)this is BoB, which i think alters the dynamic drastically.

[ QUOTE ]
I just think you're overestimating the amount of times a tag does this though. My vpip is sometimes double this dudes, and I don't even do this often.

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I take huge issue with this in general, but people quote vpip/pfr far too often when really they say nothing about post flop tendencies. I'm also fairly certain you're American so you don't play in these games, but maybe somebody like FoldEqu1ty or sh58 can weigh in on the number of people on Party with similar stats who play a lot of 3 bet pots and are VERY capable of making these type of moves. The games on party are so hugely different than any other site right now, there is a ton of 3 and 4 betting going on preflop.

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He's out of the small blind, so I imagine his PFR is around his average of 16% of hands. Download pokerstove and look at how much trash there is in a lot of that range. I can't even fathom him calling a 3 bet with any repetition whatsoever with more than maybe top 6-7% of the range. Then after he calls with this severely restricted range I again can't fathom him c/r'ing more than 60% of the time. If he's doing something more often he'd probably be broke within days.

a)because air makes up a very small % of his bluff pushing range

What? So you're saying he simultaneously calls a sick amount of 3 bets then check raises the flop all the time but he rarely has air? So he either check/folds a lot or check/calls the flop with air intending to take it away later? wtf??!!

He must have a jamie gold sized luckbox then.

Re: Getting levelled in 3 bet pot
 

I'd check behind here w/ AA,KK vs this villian as long as I had a diamond. I love letting these overaggro monkeys hang themselves.

Re: Getting levelled in 3 bet pot
 

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His range is a lot wider than big pairs and AK. Its my range thats probably polarised.

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What do u mean by this. I thought u meant his range his polarized?

Do u mean u 3-bet your weak and strong hands and call with your mediocre hands like 88-TT?

Re: Getting levelled in 3 bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd check behind here w/ AA,KK vs this villian as long as I had a diamond. I love letting these overaggro monkeys hang themselves.

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If someone is calling 3bets insanely light and check/raising every flop why would you do this?

edit: I'm seriously confused by this entire thread

Re: Getting levelled in 3 bet pot
 

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I'd check behind here w/ AA,KK vs this villian as long as I had a diamond. I love letting these overaggro monkeys hang themselves.

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If someone is calling 3bets insanely light and check/raising every flop why would you do this?

edit: I'm seriously confused by this entire thread

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sry, I don't buy he c/raises light. I'm just taking into account he's aggressive in 3bet pots. Just because someone is capable of bluff pushing 3bet pots doesn't mean they're doing it in high frequency. If you can find a flop safe enough to check an overpair your almost always going to get bluffed on turn when villian has air.

As for having AK, what about checking flop and pushing most turns if he bets?

Re: Getting levelled in 3 bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd check behind here w/ AA,KK vs this villian as long as I had a diamond. I love letting these overaggro monkeys hang themselves.

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If someone is calling 3bets insanely light and check/raising every flop why would you do this?

edit: I'm seriously confused by this entire thread

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i'm confused also. can u just explicitly write out what u mean by Villain's range and tendacies?

Re: Getting levelled in 3 bet pot
 

If he's calling 3 bets insanely light but not check/raising air on the flop and check/raising made hands then you should 3 bet and cbet the [censored] [censored] out of him

If he's calling 3 bets insanely light AND check/raising with air all the time then you should still 3bet a lot but bet/call a lot on the flop, and occasionally check behind

choose which statement fits best and roll with that

Re: Getting levelled in 3 bet pot
 

I think you make tons of sense in this thread fwiw Fonkey

Your definitely better at poker than FFootball [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Getting levelled in 3 bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]

He's out of the small blind, so I imagine his PFR is around his average of 16% of hands. Download pokerstove and look at how much trash there is in a lot of that range. I can't even fathom him calling a 3 bet with any repetition whatsoever with more than maybe top 6-7% of the range. Then after he calls with this severely restricted range I again can't fathom him c/r'ing more than 60% of the time. If he's doing something more often he'd probably be broke within days.

a)because air makes up a very small % of his bluff pushing range

What? So you're saying he simultaneously calls a sick amount of 3 bets then check raises the flop all the time but he rarely has air? So he either check/folds a lot or check/calls the flop with air intending to take it away later? wtf??!!

He must have a jamie gold sized luckbox then.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're really good at picking up on things that haven't been written. I never said villain plays a sick amount of 3 bet pots, just that its not super rare. He probably 4 bets or folds all easily dominated hands and calls with hands that can flop good and whose relative strength is apparent. He's also not making this move "all the time", because he doesn't have to do it all the time for it to be profitable, and also there's metagame considerations against light 3 bettors. It's also highly dependant on flop texture and opponent. This particular flop is a good one to make a move on with air.

He also has a VPIP of 23 from the SB, and is actually a 0.61BB/hand winner over a decent sample, so its probably safe to say that he's a very good BoB player(obviously i didn't know this at the time). If he's opening this much and being profitable, he's probably defending that money too.

Re: Getting levelled in 3 bet pot
 

Well then you already have your answer since he's playing so game theoretically optimal. You should fold AK here usually and call occasionally.

Re: Getting levelled in 3 bet pot
 

That's fine, i wasn't sure. I have been trying to think a lot about ranges and game theory lately because i think its the biggest gap between SSNL and MSNL, and also something that i'm quite weak at.

Re: Getting levelled in 3 bet pot
 

For reference, this is an example of what i'm talking about. Villain is 16/13, and a 2+2er (obviously different because its not BoB, but villain knows my stats and 3 bet tendencies).

Party Poker, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

MP: $100
CO: $98.32
BTN: $94.13
Hero (SB): $101.38
BB: $118.92
UTG: $60.05

Pre-Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (SB)
UTG folds, <font color="red">MP raises to $4</font>, 2 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $14</font>, BB folds, MP calls $10

Flop: ($29) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $21.50</font>, <font color="red">MP raises to $86 and is All-In</font>, Hero folds

Results: $72 Pot

MP shows 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], a pair of Twos.

Re: Getting levelled in 3 bet pot
 

i feel like im getting levelled by this entire thread...fonkey is like the only one making sense.

seriously just stick a range into pokerstove...you only need 35% equity to call profitably.

given your read that he'll c/r bluff and such i gave him a conservative range of TT+, 88, QdJd, JdTd and AQo (the only hand i assigned him that hes bluffing) and you have 40% equity.

this is a call imo


note: by sticking in AQo there i obv dont mean that this is what hes bluffing with neccessarily, i just stuck in one bluffing hand to make up a small part of his range...it can be pretty much w/e....

Re: Getting levelled in 3 bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
That's fine, i wasn't sure. I have been trying to think a lot about ranges and game theory lately because i think its the biggest gap between SSNL and MSNL, and also something that i'm quite weak at.

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game theory? i dont think so. I never use it anyway (not that i would know how to)

Re: Getting levelled in 3 bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
For reference, this is an example of what i'm talking about. Villain is 16/13, and a 2+2er (obviously different because its not BoB, but villain knows my stats and 3 bet tendencies).

Party Poker, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

MP: $100
CO: $98.32
BTN: $94.13
Hero (SB): $101.38
BB: $118.92
UTG: $60.05

Pre-Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (SB)
UTG folds, <font color="red">MP raises to $4</font>, 2 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $14</font>, BB folds, MP calls $10

Flop: ($29) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $21.50</font>, <font color="red">MP raises to $86 and is All-In</font>, Hero folds

Results: $72 Pot

MP shows 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], a pair of Twos.

[/ QUOTE ]

The fact that he showed leads me to believe he does this VERY VERY rarely.

Re: Getting levelled in 3 bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For reference, this is an example of what i'm talking about. Villain is 16/13, and a 2+2er (obviously different because its not BoB, but villain knows my stats and 3 bet tendencies).

Party Poker, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

MP: $100
CO: $98.32
BTN: $94.13
Hero (SB): $101.38
BB: $118.92
UTG: $60.05

Pre-Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (SB)
UTG folds, <font color="red">MP raises to $4</font>, 2 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $14</font>, BB folds, MP calls $10

Flop: ($29) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $21.50</font>, <font color="red">MP raises to $86 and is All-In</font>, Hero folds

Results: $72 Pot

MP shows 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], a pair of Twos.

[/ QUOTE ]

The fact that he showed leads me to believe he does this VERY VERY rarely.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he actually showed because of the chat that preceded the fold. When he PM'd me later, he told me that he thought i'd folded JJ. Seen as he should definitely recognise the hand, maybe he can elaborate on his frequencies, because i'm not certain, but i'm pretty sure he does this a fair amount of the time.

Re: Getting levelled in 3 bet pot
 

yeah thats a good idea post your bluffing frequencies in 3b pots on 2p2 to help the ppl you play against

lulz

Re: Getting levelled in 3 bet pot
 

Except people don't know his Party name.....

Re: Getting levelled in 3 bet pot
 

This post from Krantz's well is the inspiration for this thread. I've been thinking about it a lot because its very relevant to todays Party games.

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here's an example for you. TAG 3-bets me and I have XY. I know/believe they're 3-betting light and I call. I flop a gutshot, they c-bet, and I shove. Uh oh, I run into AA. He wins a stack. Or, I call with XY, shove with air and run into a set. Spewing money, yes? Of course. But for one, they WILL fold on lots of occasions, and occasionally fold the best hand, to START, and secondly, if they see me shoving with nothing, they're going to have to bet/call with the bulk of their range in the future, no? Like 99 on a J high flop or even QQ on an A high flop? Which means that if I adjust well enough, I can start getting AI with JT on that J high flop or A5s on that A high flop, whereas if normal considerations were in effect, I'd be calling and hoping to check it down. Another consideration: TAG sees me calling his 3-bets with whatever I opened with. He now feels that he needs to continue to 3-bet me light because his hand preflop is perceived to be better than mine preflop, with no plans for how to play me OOP in a bloated pot postflop. Which leads to people bet/calling AT on QQ4 flops against me when I shove 66.

A little rambly, but it's all part of a larger gameplan. And it can be really high variance and result in massive downswings if I'm not paying a lot of attention.

Same goes for OOP play - you're sure a guy 3-bets light, so instead of 4-betting, you decide to call and c/r AI any decent-looking flop, knowing that they c-bet 100% of the time and will have to fold many, many of the hands they've reraised with.

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Re: Getting levelled in 3 bet pot
 

this is never a call. youre either flipping or losing. this is very rarely total air. you should check behind this flop some too

Re: Getting levelled in 3 bet pot
 

snappppppp callllllllllllllllm you have AK

Re: Getting levelled in 3 bet pot
 

Krantz theory applies to highstakes, at ssnl with such a large player pool this type of thinking is suicide imo

Re: Getting levelled in 3 bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Krantz theory applies to highstakes, at ssnl with such a large player pool this type of thinking is suicide imo

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Also most SSNL people dont have the balls to make a lot of the thinner calls, or if they do its in the completely wrong spot.

Re: Getting levelled in 3 bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Krantz theory applies to highstakes, at ssnl with such a large player pool this type of thinking is suicide imo

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The player pool of good regulars at Party is pretty small (probably because they move up so quick), and this really only happens against somebody you have a read on.