calling a cap preflop
 

you raise KJo UTG, MP 3bets, CO cold caps, folded back to you... do you see a flop?

how does your answer change based on stats/reads on MP/CO?

I'm curious because I've been folding in situations like this with dominated offsuit hands as a default. Obviously, the crazier/laggier my opponents are, the more inclined I am to see a flop.

Re: calling a cap preflop
 

[ QUOTE ]
you raise KJo UTG, MP 3bets, CO cold caps, folded back to you... do you see a flop?

how does your answer change based on stats/reads on MP/CO?

I'm curious because I've been folding in situations like this with dominated offsuit hands as a default. Obviously, the crazier/laggier my opponents are, the more inclined I am to see a flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I fold it the first time around. If I did raise it utg, I would fold when it gets back to me capped.

edit: IF I'm playing well.

Re: calling a cap preflop
 

hm, KJo is a standard open for me UTG, and I'm pretty tight. I assume you raise KQ? Do you see a flop with that?

Re: calling a cap preflop
 

I don't think I ever see a flop here after it's capped preflop. I think raising this hand utg is fine however. Sometimes I muck it, depending on table conditions.

Re: calling a cap preflop
 

[ QUOTE ]
hm, KJo is a standard open for me UTG, and I'm pretty tight. I assume you raise KQ? Do you see a flop with that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Is KJo UTG a winner in your database? When I checked my database it was a loser UTG AND in the HJ. Probably because I play bad postflop. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: calling a cap preflop
 

Stox has KJ as an UTG opener

Re: calling a cap preflop
 

[ QUOTE ]
Stox has KJ as an UTG opener

[/ QUOTE ]

He doesnt. KJ is a small winner in my database but I stopped opening it after people here told me not to.

Re: calling a cap preflop
 

I usually don't open KJo UTG anymore as it was the biggest loser in my database over 500k hands. I will occasionally raise it, but it has to be the right table for it.

Re: calling a cap preflop
 

ok, i didnt really want to start a preflop debate... so, maybe change my position to MP, CO 3bets, and button cold caps....

in general, whatever the bottom offsuit hand in your range is, do you fold that hand to a cold capper oop?

Re: calling a cap preflop
 

he doesnt ask if you should open KJo UTG but if you should call the 2cold after you opened (eg. someone 3bets and other guy caps do you call aswell) the answer is no I dont

Re: calling a cap preflop
 

As I see it KJo is hand that will win a little money in a capped pot and has the potential to loose a lot. It has reverse implied odds in this spot and I don't think it is a mistake to fold. It is dominated from all most cappingrange hands: AK, AQ, KK, AA,in lesser degree KQ, AJ. Even QQ, and JJ leaves us with only 3 outs which may be dead to due to domination from the other opponent. We can hope that both are raising with pairs under TT, but what are the odds?? Low enough. And if we get attacked during the hand we might fold it anyway.

Re: calling a cap preflop
 

KJo was a big winner UTG in my now passed away 700k hand DB.

It depends a lot on the rake and the players behind you. If you guys fold or call indiscriminately without regarding this you are making bad plays once in a while.

FWIW I play KTo UTG as a default at 5/10+. At 3/6 and below I would fold KTo as a default and only play KJo when I havent got a bunch of loose players with position on me.


@ OP

getting back to your question. I dont have any clear answers for you as I suck at this spot as well. But the thing we need to consider is the stats I suppose

- HJ is 50/30 or maniac and CO is tough LAGTAG who knows this. In this case I think I call. CO is capping light here and HJ is gonna be money postflop. I think I call my entire UTG range here

- HJ is TAG and CO is non maniac. Now I fold and I would consider folding KQo as well. Prolly calling any pair and any suited broadway and AQo. But I really dunno

Re: calling a cap preflop
 

fooooold.

edit: oh my, some of you guys fold KJo utg? wow. Where is NateThaGreat to talk about high card strength.

Re: calling a cap preflop
 

I used to fold those kind of hands for 2 more thinking that I was often dominated, but a tough mid-high player told me I should be continuing because all too often I will up against Ax and a PP or Ax and Ax where we will often have our full outs

depends on villains ranges of course, how many of the weaker Ax hands and small-mid PPs will they have versus how many premiums that dominate us. in a CO-button-SB or button-SB-BB situation playing vs LAGs/LAGTAGs they have a wide enough range to be continuing for the reason I mentioned above

in the situation you describe I think it is a fold vs anyone but serious LAGs. people don't get out of line too much facing raises/3bets from early position

Re: calling a cap preflop
 

if it's 6 handed, just fold PF to begin with, and this won't happen.

but seriously, reads do matter in most cases, but with this hand, whatever your opponents are, you should fold to the cap, or fold PF the first time, here's why.

1. If you have maniac/crazy players 3 betting and capping, so you think you should call because they have QTo and whatnot, you should fold PF in the first place, because KJo doesn't play that well if you have 60/30's behind you.

2. IF you raise UTG at a tight table, and 2 passives/tags 3bet and cap, you should fold, because overpairs are probably out, and it's over.

I haven't raised KJo utg in months now, all it does it add to variance.

Re: calling a cap preflop
 

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't raised KJo utg in months now, all it does it add to variance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Filtered for UTG:

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/175/utgdp3.jpg

Re: calling a cap preflop
 

this shows pretty clearly that the samples aren't big enough since you're losing more than double with KJo vs. KTo and just completely crushing KJo's performance with KQo.

Re: calling a cap preflop
 

[ QUOTE ]
this shows pretty clearly that the samples aren't big enough since you're losing more than double with KJo vs. KTo and just completely crushing KJo's performance with KQo.

[/ QUOTE ]

You also need to factor in the VPIP. I didn't filter for 'raised first in'.

Re: calling a cap preflop
 

so if this is UTG why is pfr % not 100% for KJo and KTo, you arent limping this UTG are you, because that would be terrible

Re: calling a cap preflop
 

[ QUOTE ]
so if this is UTG why is pfr % not 100% for KJo and KTo, you arent limping this UTG are you, because that would be terrible

[/ QUOTE ]

No, he's folding (VPIP=PFR).

Re: calling a cap preflop
 

oh right my mistake

Re: calling a cap preflop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I haven't raised KJo utg in months now, all it does it add to variance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Filtered for UTG:

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/175/utgdp3.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you remember to check the "not a blind" in the filter

If not you will get hands where you are a blind 3 of the button in your sample

Thats gonna skew the results a lot

Since your PFR is 100% for KQo I am guessing you did this tho

Re: calling a cap preflop
 

the fact that your implied odds postflop seem real bad to me is why i would fold, just completely dominated by other hands. If 3 better was super aggro and other guy was a TAG so he might try isolating then its a possible call or if both are super LAGGY but still i dont like it.