200bb preflop decision? 25/50
 

I have about 10k, tsarrast is directly to my right and covers. He had 20k earlier and I doubled up off of him in a rr pot when i rr QT, flop top pair and get it in vs a semi bluff. Maybe he is a little steaming but i really doubt it.It's pretty early in my session so no more of a dynamic than that. He prob thinks i squeeze more than most but not a huge amount or anything i dont think.

313OG opens to 175 in the HJ, tsarrast flat calls, I repop to ~775 from the button, 313 folds, tsar 4bets to ~2700.

I...

oh, edit, I have AKs

2nd edit: 313 has 5k.

Re: 200bb preflop decision? 25/50
 

I dont know villain, but I would shove

Re: 200bb preflop decision? 25/50
 

man i always get it in here...

god the back raise tilts me, but this seems like a good spot for it

Re: 200bb preflop decision? 25/50
 

It looks like you are needing some justification for shoving here....given your description this is standard...so he has KK suck it up...

Re: 200bb preflop decision? 25/50
 

why is it standard? do you play ftp/stars 25/50?

Re: 200bb preflop decision? 25/50
 

[ QUOTE ]
man i always get it in here...


[/ QUOTE ]

I feel like I get it in bad too often in these spots sometimes though, but I don't really know what else to do. I don't think either calling or folding are terrible though. In fact, I know a lot of people will hate it but I kinda like flatting this raise. I would consider flat calling pre (not 3betting) often as well.

Re: 200bb preflop decision? 25/50
 

People just always tend to have it here. I think I fold.

Re: 200bb preflop decision? 25/50
 

[ QUOTE ]
People just always tend to have it here. I think I fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

seriously, since I've started seeing back raises happen more often this month at 25/50 and 10/20, I have never seen a bluff, and always gotten it in bad against them. Its the new limp/rr.

Re: 200bb preflop decision? 25/50
 

I fold... it scares the hell out of me that he made it 2700 as opposed to 2000-2300ish..

Re: 200bb preflop decision? 25/50
 

Hmm tough.. Id prolly push but im wondering if this spewing and he just shows up with AA/KK here too often.

Re: 200bb preflop decision? 25/50
 

[ QUOTE ]
People just always tend to have it here. I think I fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: 200bb preflop decision? 25/50
 

If he might be steaming a little, he's not folding AK or 99+, to I think shoving sucks unless you think he is just f'ing around and might fold more than like 20% of the time here(doubtful). Contrary to popular belief, it IS acceptable to fold AK for stacks at stakes above 10-20, and here is a good spot to do so IMHO.

Re: 200bb preflop decision? 25/50
 

Better to have AKs here than QQ is all I can say, but I prob chuck it anyway.

Re: 200bb preflop decision? 25/50
 

your never worse than a coin flip here, get it in

Re: 200bb preflop decision? 25/50
 

[ QUOTE ]
your never worse than a coin flip here, get it in

[/ QUOTE ]

thats so false im not saying i advocate a fold cuz i dont think im qualified to say that i think this decision is easy enough that i could correctly make it however to say that people in these games arent capable of calling with AA or KK hoping to induce a squeeze with thinking competent aggro players behind just isnt very smart

Re: 200bb preflop decision? 25/50
 

people are also capable of calling with AA or KK for reasons other than inducing a squeeze as well, you most definitely can't discount KK/AA from his range without a read that he always reraises them. I'm guessing if Ansky had this read, he wouldn't have made the thread.

Re: 200bb preflop decision? 25/50
 

pretty easy fold

Re: 200bb preflop decision? 25/50
 

tsarrest tilts me to no end. I've seen him be pretty tricky before so that tends to lean me towards folding. Although vs. your image you could probably flat it and get value from QQ if an A or K comes up because he is a huge station.

Re: 200bb preflop decision? 25/50
 

edit nvm didnt see it was 10k

is this 6 max or fullr ing?

Re: 200bb preflop decision? 25/50
 

shady
but dont think your dom. here.
maybe QQ turns up here from him.
but if he knows u with 3 bet OG lite then maybe he moves here to 2700 with any 2?
IDK
shove and click get chips
and forget about it

Re: 200bb preflop decision? 25/50
 

if i remember right he calls more than the whole crazy aggro thing that is popular today. I don't think he is messing around here too much with 200bb oop. I'd prob fold unless i have seen him do this before.

Re: 200bb preflop decision? 25/50
 

[ QUOTE ]
shady
but dont think your dom. here.
maybe QQ turns up here from him.
but if he knows u with 3 bet OG lite then maybe he moves here to 2700 with any 2?
IDK
shove and click get chips
and forget about it

[/ QUOTE ]

how are you not banned yet?

Re: 200bb preflop decision? 25/50
 

[ QUOTE ]
edit nvm didnt see it was 10k

is this 6 max or fullr ing?

[/ QUOTE ]

6m... who the [censored] plays full ring?

Re: 200bb preflop decision? 25/50
 

who the [censored] plays 6 max? i only play 5 handed where someone buys a table on ftp then isn't there. once they show up im out like the vapors.

Re: 200bb preflop decision? 25/50
 

[ QUOTE ]
who the [censored] plays 6 max? i only play 5 handed where someone buys a table on ftp then isn't there. once they show up im out like the vapors.

[/ QUOTE ]

i only play 3 handed and i only play the button

Re: 200bb preflop decision? 25/50
 

this is pretty gross, but i think i can find a fold here.

Re: 200bb preflop decision? 25/50
 

looks like a fold to me. backraises always own me unless i get it in super-bad and suck out.

i also think this is KK/AA way more than QQ/JJ/AK given stack sizes, assuming he's competent.

Re: 200bb preflop decision? 25/50
 

[ QUOTE ]
your never worse than a coin flip here, get it in

[/ QUOTE ]

you do realize you're saying that villain never plays AA/KK like this, right?

ansky- is this a standard default rr for you pre? w/ your image and how others view you i think you should consider cc'ing more often than you probably do from the button here. edit: obv this is a standard rr, what i'm wondering is how often you'd flat from the button w/ AKs, if ever. i love taking a currently aggro image and playing AK this way in position, i.e., flat calling pre.

as played i muck w/o feeling very confident that this isn't a player/spot where they know you just wont play a pot w/o the very top of your range.



-Tex

Re: 200bb preflop decision? 25/50
 

OK, I recently read a thread about a live hand Donnacha o Dea played at EPT Dublin sidegames. It is almost identical to the line your villain has taken here - similar stakes, same positions, same table / player dynamic and same line by all players.

In that scenario DOD had seen his opponent get slightly out of line (similiar to your QT double up). He made the exact same limp squeeze and after some thought the hero (you) came back over the top as a resqueeze AI to which DOD insta folded his TT.

I would say in this case villain has either QQ, JJ, TT at best. Now we need to decide if he will fold any of those if you rrr AI. I would guess he will fold TT (calling it could ruin his table image making him look like a tilted station) but call JJ and QQ AI. I suspect he has you on a very wide range presently but if you rrr AI (particularly if you do it relatively quickly) he has to narrow it down to AK, AQ(maybe if thinks u are playing crazy) and pairs JJ+. Also, if you showed a tell with a shocked delay after his limp squeeze I suspect he will put u on AK more often than big pairs - especially if he has one himself and it is 6-max and therefore you probably have little fold equity, would you agree?...so do u wanna race for stacks?

Another reason I believe he does not have AA, KK here is that his limp squeeze doesn't make sense to me. No matter what he thinks you have whether it be air or big pair / big slick surely he is incorrectly pricing you out - thinking his big limp squeeze raise is going to induce a fold almost all the time. IMO its a play on you, it appears he wants to take the pot down right here and now. For these reasons even more so I believe he has TT or JJ more often than QQ. Also, unless you have a lot of history together then it is unlikely there is 10th level thinking going on as of yet at the table between the two of you.

Nevertheless I believe he will race his JJ+ here and likely fold TT or worse. If he thinks you are crazy he expects an insta fold but a rrr AI has to narrow your range and put him to a difficult test.

Overall I think you have to push here almost all the time. IMO AA, KK is unlikely holding for him and with some fold equity I think it is a +EV play for u to push.

P.S. Sorry for calling you Surley lol.

Re: 200bb preflop decision? 25/50
 

ansky, why did you leave out you who was in the blinds and their squeeze frequencies. As someone who makes the occasional backraise in some overaggro 5/10 games thats key to the hand.

Re: 200bb preflop decision? 25/50
 

sick, like at anything up to 5/10 id be pretty happy to get it in, but not knowing tssarats game its a really sick spot and he could be thinking on a higher level and have it. man this is a spot, think id shove and xorbies right A K is way better than qq in this spot

Re: 200bb preflop decision? 25/50
 

fold vs him

Re: 200bb preflop decision? 25/50
 

Is this the thread that starts a craze of backraise bluffing?
Uggghhh yay more variance.

Re: 200bb preflop decision? 25/50
 

[ QUOTE ]
People just always tend to have it here. I think I fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

yah. and tsarast is like 10 times as likely to have it here as most people

Re: 200bb preflop decision? 25/50
 

[ QUOTE ]
who the [censored] plays 6 max? i only play 5 handed where someone buys a table on ftp then isn't there. once they show up im out like the vapors.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol wtf

Re: 200bb preflop decision? 25/50
 

haha ok I guess my analysis goes out the window..didn't know tsarast was that type of player... seems like he is from the same school of thought as me... that noone ever folds any hand so u may as well just overbet everything.

I guess that's the flip side of my post above!

lol

I know u know i know u know i know u know etc...

vs.

I know it is very likely u u can't fold just like most others so stack me please.

Good case of player dependant plays. If he knows you as a good thinking player then I push AI in your spot. If he doesn't know u I would fold. NB: Do the opposite of whatever u do this time next he tries it...tomorrow, next week / month etc.

Question... do u fold this against most other unknown players too? I'm guessing no.

Re: 200bb preflop decision? 25/50
 

from playing with tsarrast,

1)i dont think he is doing this without a really good hand.
2)i dont think he ever folds when you shove even if he has like 10's or Jacks.

Those are player dependent and reads from the last time i played with him (i think several months back but maybe not). I think that makes this a pretty easy fold unless he has done this to you a few times before. If this is the first time hes done it (ive never seen him do it) just give him credit and fold.

Re: 200bb preflop decision? 25/50
 

[ QUOTE ]
from playing with tsarrast,

1)i dont think he is doing this without a really good hand.
2)i dont think he ever folds when you shove even if he has like 10's or Jacks.

Those are player dependent and reads from the last time i played with him (i think several months back but maybe not). I think that makes this a pretty easy fold unless he has done this to you a few times before. If this is the first time hes done it (ive never seen him do it) just give him credit and fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
The state of the 6max game online right now makes #2 100% true and proper. 2 years ago, JJ would be pretty easy fold to a PFRRRRAI 200BB's deep in most games.

Results
 

I shoved. He had QQ. I won. Ship it.

Re: Results
 

[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ansky

but are you satisfied with your g-bucks? From what Ive read in this thread the consensus seems to be you were losing vs. his range