guy claims he knows a pokerstars programmer that rigged the rng
 

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/s...ge=1&pp=15

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Funny read. I never signed up to that forum but read it often. Am real tempted to sign up now just to berate OP.

Re: guy claims he knows a pokerstars programmer that rigged the rng
 

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Am real tempted to sign up now just to berate everyone in that thread.

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Re: guy claims he knows a pokerstars programmer that rigged the rng
 

LOL!
I like the he talks about the "5th ace" incident when everyone knows that it was clearly photoshopped. The aces on the board don't even line up.

Glad I read that though definitely worth the time IMO

Re: guy claims he knows a pokerstars programmer that rigged the rng
 

Why would you read past the first sentence.

"I am a good poker player who does very well in live games. In online poker though, I have lost money and suffered bad beats where the odds must have been over 500:1. This has happend numberous times."

Re: guy claims he knows a pokerstars programmer that rigged the rng
 

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Why would you read past the first sentence.

"I am a good poker player who does very well in live games. In online poker though, I have lost money and suffered bad beats where the odds must have been over 500:1. This has happend numberous times."

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Because its so good! The guy is taking facts from a ytmnd page!

Re: guy claims he knows a pokerstars programmer that rigged the rng
 

What he details is exactly the way any site might cheat with some measure of safety. There was a poster here with a 10K plus post total that believed exactly the same thing after his own research.

Re: guy claims he knows a pokerstars programmer that rigged the rng
 

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Why would you read past the first sentence.

"I am a good poker player who does very well in live games. In online poker though, I have lost money and suffered bad beats where the odds must have been over 500:1. This has happend numberous times."

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Because its so good! The guy is taking facts from a ytmnd page!

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Ok, I admit it. I kept reading and after further review LOL.

Re: guy claims he knows a pokerstars programmer that rigged the rng
 

On a serious note, this is really not good. Is this what the conscious believes after the "BAN" and after the AP "rigging"? Its like a highschool rumor, its only going to get worse. Don't get me wrong, half these guys come off like complete morons, but these are the ones we want in our games.

Re: guy claims he knows a pokerstars programmer that rigged the rng
 

You ever notice how many fish whine about a site being rigged, but never get up from the table until they bust? Online poker isn't in any danger.

Re: guy claims he knows a pokerstars programmer that rigged the rng
 

Re: guy claims he knows a pokerstars programmer that rigged the rng
 

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You ever notice how many fish whine about a site being rigged, but never get up from the table until they bust? Online poker isn't in any danger.

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How many times have we seen it....

fish1: this [censored] is so rigged
Dealer: fish1 rebuys for $3 and has 1500 chips added.

Re: guy claims he knows a pokerstars programmer that rigged the rng
 

I am a programmer and I can tell you it is far easier to rig poker software than it is to create software to play poker from scratch.
So if anything the argument - it would cost a lot - and is real hard to do is out the window.

The way the programmer said he did it also make sense. Something I would have to do as a programmer is make sure that in the long run the cards are not distributed abnormally i.e too many pocket aces getting cracked, because then anyone can use poker tracking tools and prove its rigged.
On the other hand, I have no idea how a programmer can screw it up to throw a fifth ace. (And release it to public too!)
The really good way to rig the site is to assign numeric values based on their wins/losses/playing style/newbie etc and say the higher number is favored in the deal because he recently joined and has not won much. Based on that the deal can be adjusted on the river /turn. Also settings can control which tables are rigged and which are not. Sometimes too, higher limit tables will not be rigged because firstly, they are very few newbies there and second, the pros might pick up on it.

the net result of a well rigged site: the very good players will still win though they might still suffer a few bad beats from newbies.
The newbies /bad players will last a little longer and will be encouraged.
However, the average/not so good players will now be losing players because all they needed was a little bit of variance to keep them in debt anyway.
thus, most of the rigged site stories will come from average players only since they are the ones the most victimized. Some winning players might discover this but most good players don't play at micro/medium and so may never notice this.
As a programmer, I see nothing extraordinary with this - but as a poker player it is disturbing to know it can be done <i>undetected!</i>

Re: guy claims he knows a pokerstars programmer that rigged the rng
 

heh, that thread is pretty good insight into how your typical fish thinks and views online poker.

That said tho, I pretty much agree with what he said. It's called Riverstars for a reason.

Re: guy claims he knows a pokerstars programmer that rigged the rng
 

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heh, that thread is pretty good insight into how your typical fish thinks and views online poker.

That said tho, I pretty much agree with what he said. It's called Riverstars for a reason.

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Another reason I might be having bad luck is simply because I am not putting enough money on to start with. I always play low stakes (never higher than 25/50c blinds) because I have never put more than $60 dollars to start with. I have turned $60 into $500 before (!!!!!!!!!!). But overall I get called by terrible cards with the nut straight after the flop and lose to 4 of a kind or a full house on some ubsurd turn and river.

Incredibly frustrating when I know I am the better player. I don't know what some people are thinking when they make these calls.

Re: guy claims he knows a pokerstars programmer that rigged the rng
 

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heh, that thread is pretty good insight into how your typical fish thinks and views online poker.

That said tho, I pretty much agree with what he said. It's called Riverstars for a reason.

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Another reason I might be having bad luck is simply because I am not putting enough money on to start with. I always play low stakes (never higher than 25/50c blinds) because I have never put more than $60 dollars to start with. I have turned $60 into $500 before (!!!!!!!!!!). But overall I get called by terrible cards with the nut straight after the flop and lose to 4 of a kind or a full house on some ubsurd turn and river.

Incredibly frustrating when I know I am the better player. I don't know what some people are thinking when they make these calls.

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What? 2.33 buyins isn't enough? NIT!

Re: guy claims he knows a pokerstars programmer that rigged the rng
 

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heh, that thread is pretty good insight into how your typical fish thinks and views online poker.

That said tho, I pretty much agree with what he said. It's called Riverstars for a reason.

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Another reason I might be having bad luck is simply because I am not putting enough money on to start with. I always play low stakes (never higher than 25/50c blinds) because I have never put more than $60 dollars to start with. I have turned $60 into $500 before (!!!!!!!!!!). But overall I get called by terrible cards with the nut straight after the flop and lose to 4 of a kind or a full house on some ubsurd turn and river.

Incredibly frustrating when I know I am the better player. I don't know what some people are thinking when they make these calls.

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What? 2.33 buyins isn't enough? NIT!

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try 1.2?

Re: guy claims he knows a pokerstars programmer that rigged the rng
 

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I am a programmer and I can tell you it is far easier to rig poker software than it is to create software to play poker from scratch.
So if anything the argument - it would cost a lot - and is real hard to do is out the window.

The way the programmer said he did it also make sense. Something I would have to do as a programmer is make sure that in the long run the cards are not distributed abnormally i.e too many pocket aces getting cracked, because then anyone can use poker tracking tools and prove its rigged.
On the other hand, I have no idea how a programmer can screw it up to throw a fifth ace. (And release it to public too!)
The really good way to rig the site is to assign numeric values based on their wins/losses/playing style/newbie etc and say the higher number is favored in the deal because he recently joined and has not won much. Based on that the deal can be adjusted on the river /turn. Also settings can control which tables are rigged and which are not. Sometimes too, higher limit tables will not be rigged because firstly, they are very few newbies there and second, the pros might pick up on it.

the net result of a well rigged site: the very good players will still win though they might still suffer a few bad beats from newbies.
The newbies /bad players will last a little longer and will be encouraged.
However, the average/not so good players will now be losing players because all they needed was a little bit of variance to keep them in debt anyway.
thus, most of the rigged site stories will come from average players only since they are the ones the most victimized. Some winning players might discover this but most good players don't play at micro/medium and so may never notice this.
As a programmer, I see nothing extraordinary with this - but as a poker player it is disturbing to know it can be done <i>undetected!</i>

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Found this to be a pretty reasonable and thoughtful response on a subject that usually draws massive amounts of flame from true believers on both sides of the "online poker is rigged" argument.

Although I'm not a programmer it wouldn't seem that it would be any harder for a site to program hand results as Bystander suggested than it would be for IGT to program the RNG on individual video poker machines to give varying degrees of advantage to the casino as they have been doing for years.

Re: guy claims he knows a pokerstars programmer that rigged the rng
 

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heh, that thread is pretty good insight into how your typical fish thinks and views online poker.

That said tho, I pretty much agree with what he said. It's called Riverstars for a reason.

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Another reason I might be having bad luck is simply because I am not putting enough money on to start with. I always play low stakes (never higher than 25/50c blinds) because I have never put more than $60 dollars to start with. I have turned $60 into $500 before (!!!!!!!!!!). But overall I get called by terrible cards with the nut straight after the flop and lose to 4 of a kind or a full house on some ubsurd turn and river.

Incredibly frustrating when I know I am the better player. I don't know what some people are thinking when they make these calls.

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What? 2.33 buyins isn't enough? NIT!

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He never said he started on NL50.
He said he never played higher than NL50 which is quite reasonable if you gonna cash out every time you reach 500.

Re: guy claims he knows a pokerstars programmer that rigged the rng
 

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Although I'm not a programmer it wouldn't seem that it would be any harder for a site to program hand results as Bystander suggested than it would be for IGT to program the RNG on individual video poker machines to give varying degrees of advantage to the casino as they have been doing for years.

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LOL really you wear your tinfoil to the local b&m's then too? ever heard of a gaming commission?

Re: guy claims he knows a pokerstars programmer that rigged the rng
 

Seriously, the tinfoil hat joke wasn't that funny the first 231,978 times it was used, nor is it funny now. Thanks for your contribution to the thread anyway.

One thing is obvious from that site, if anythings rigged , its rigged for Washington Redskins fans.

Re: guy claims he knows a pokerstars programmer that rigged the rng
 

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As a programmer, I see nothing extraordinary with this - but as a poker player it is disturbing to know it can be done <i>undetected!</i>

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If it's rigged the way alleged, by definition hands are winning at different rates than should ordinarily be the case. How would that not show up in a statistical analysis?

Off the top of my head, three things to test for: 1) Percent of each complete five-card hand, from the worst possible in that kind of poker up to a royal flush (or A234 Badugi), that loses, splits, and wins the pot at showdown. 2) Same test for just the two-card starting hand in the hold 'em games. 3) For just the winning hands, which percent held up from the starting hand and which hit on the flop, turn, or river?

Re: guy claims he knows a pokerstars programmer that rigged the rng
 

i thought everyone knew that getting it in as 70/30 dog on stars was how you won tournys anyway. once i learnt to suck out i did quite well...:)
his argument might have a bit more cred if he didnt mention the 5 aces, but then look at AP know one ever dared beleive what happened there. not saying stars is rigged or anything like that tho. he just made valid points weve all heard a 1000 times. plus he played at micro stakes. if your gainfully employed its not a good way to make extra dollars imo.

Re: guy claims he knows a pokerstars programmer that rigged the rng
 

someone register and post a sick graph on that site

Re: guy claims he knows a pokerstars programmer that rigged the rng
 

I had to stop reading it at "80%." I don't know what he is playing but generally 95% of "players" at Stars are at least decent players. That's why he, an offline player, is losing.

Re: guy claims he knows a pokerstars programmer that rigged the rng
 

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Although I'm not a programmer it wouldn't seem that it would be any harder for a site to program hand results as Bystander suggested than it would be for IGT to program the RNG on individual video poker machines to give varying degrees of advantage to the casino as they have been doing for years.

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LOL really you wear your tinfoil to the local b&m's then too? ever heard of a gaming commission?

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Are they actually doing anything other than collecting the licence money?

Re: guy claims he knows a pokerstars programmer that rigged the rng
 

Just read thru that thread and all I can say is I'm now sure Mark Moseley was rigged.

Re: guy claims he knows a pokerstars programmer that rigged the rng
 

I always feel safer playing online than live - even at random small sites.

To date, ive never spotted a marked card online.

Ive also never heard of people being caught colluding live, then have their bank accounts frozen and the money redistrubuted to the people they colluded against.

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Funny story from when i first started playing live - i was playing in my local casino and got talking to the regs, and the topic of someone winning a tourney at another casino in the city came up. Somehow someone mentioned how the regulars who play the tourneys in that game openly collude at final tables to ensure that people new the games dont win.

I was highly shocked, and asked why the casino did nothing to stop them softplaying each other and working to beat the "strangers" in the game instead of playing it straight up - they said there wasnt anything the floor could do and its a pretty common practice live. With the idea being to keep the funds within their circle.

Safe to say ive never played there and if i did so before finding out about this id sure as hell make sure the floor did something about it.

I also saw in a live cash game where two friends raised out a third player preflop, then chopped the pot instead of running the board (they showed they had AA and KK, so it wasnt raising out a third player with air just to chop). When i questioned one about it (the guy with AA infact) he said either they chop the pot here or they do it outside later anyway and the dealer basically accepted that there was nothing could be done about them deciding to chop - it was their decision. I told them it was bad for business and if they want to keep strangers in the game dont do it. I never saw it again but it still leaves me uncomfortable and if the third player in the hand wasnt a regular also id expect them to be extremely pissed about it.

Anyway you want to cut it, live games are WAY shadier than online. They just happen to be super juicy at the same time.

Re: guy claims he knows a pokerstars programmer that rigged the rng
 

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Although I'm not a programmer it wouldn't seem that it would be any harder for a site to program hand results as Bystander suggested than it would be for IGT to program the RNG on individual video poker machines to give varying degrees of advantage to the casino as they have been doing for years.

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LOL really you wear your tinfoil to the local b&m's then too? ever heard of a gaming commission?

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Are they actually doing anything other than collecting the licence money?

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i worked in vegas for a decade and oh ya, if a poker machine screws anybody theres hell to pay. nevadas gaming regulation is vvvg probably the best, AC's is more thorough but way to anal.

now the kawanhee indian (or whatever the hell it is in canada) i have no idea but this article http://www.online-casinos.com/news/news5739.asp doesn't make me wanna really bestow my trust in them. they look at nothing and have outsider review for them.

i could tell some good stories about nev gaming (and how to avoid them) http://www.forumup.com/images/smiles...nian_twani.gif .

- [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: guy claims he knows a pokerstars programmer that rigged the rng
 

pokerstars is rigged.....thought everone already knew

Re: guy claims he knows a pokerstars programmer that rigged the rng
 

80% sure that when allin preflop pokerstars rigs the order of the 5 cards for maximum drama. (most dramatic card on river or turn).

having said that, it doesn't change anything.

Re: guy claims he knows a pokerstars programmer that rigged the rng
 

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80% sure that when allin preflop pokerstars rigs the order of the 5 cards for maximum drama. (most dramatic card on river or turn).

having said that, it doesn't change anything.

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or to keep the 100000s of morons who pay their bills around so they can pay more....either way.

Re: guy claims he knows a pokerstars programmer that rigged the rng
 

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Quote:
80% sure that when allin preflop pokerstars rigs the order of the 5 cards for maximum drama. (most dramatic card on river or turn).

having said that, it doesn't change anything.




or to keep the 100000s of morons who pay their bills around so they can pay more....either way.

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no I'm just saying that AK vs 55 allin

it comes wxy z A, or wxy A z, more often than usual.

as opposed to
wAx y z
wxA y z
Awx y z

where w,x,y,z are non fives.

as you can see it doesn't change the outcome of the hand at all, since all the money went in preflop.

Re: guy claims he knows a pokerstars programmer that rigged the rng
 

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it comes wxy z A, or wxy A z, more often than usual.

as opposed to
wAx y z
wxA y z
Awx y z



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What a mathematically sound argument.. Let me guess, the A comes way more often than the K too, amirite? But the K hits the flop rather than the turn/river more often to balance it out? Genius.

Re: guy claims he knows a pokerstars programmer that rigged the rng
 

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Although I'm not a programmer it wouldn't seem that it would be any harder for a site to program hand results as Bystander suggested than it would be for IGT to program the RNG on individual video poker machines to give varying degrees of advantage to the casino as they have been doing for years.

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The house advantage of video poker machines is set by varying the pay table, not by rigging the RNG. The casino has an advantage because the payouts for the various hands are less than the true odds of making that hand. It also helps that most players don't play correct strategy.

Re: guy claims he knows a pokerstars programmer that rigged the rng
 

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Quote:

it comes wxy z A, or wxy A z, more often than usual.

as opposed to
wAx y z
wxA y z
Awx y z





What a mathematically sound argument.. Let me guess, the A comes way more often than the K too, amirite? But the K hits the flop rather than the turn/river more often to balance it out? Genius.

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I'm only talking about when both players (everybody) is allin preflop.

so it doesn't matter what order the 5 board cards come, as far as determining the winner.

Re: guy claims he knows a pokerstars programmer that rigged the rng
 

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Although I'm not a programmer it wouldn't seem that it would be any harder for a site to program hand results as Bystander suggested than it would be for IGT to program the RNG on individual video poker machines to give varying degrees of advantage to the casino as they have been doing for years.

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LOL really you wear your tinfoil to the local b&m's then too? ever heard of a gaming commission?

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Not to waste the time of this forum arguing the arcania of Nevada Gaming Regulation, but the relevant point in regards to the "online poker is rigged" argument is that RANDOMNESS of card distribution does not result in EQUALITY of card distribution, be it amongst video poker machines in a casino or players on a poker site.

The argument that any statistical disparity in card distribution or hand results would be spotted by tracking programs has been ofton made on this forum in defense of the randomness of poker-site RNGs. I would argue that it is just this homogeneity of result that lends credence to claims of programmed "levelling" by the sites as proposed by Bystander earlier in this thread.

Recall from your Stats 101 course the concept of the Inverted Bell Curve when the results of a series of randomly occurring events are displayed on a graph. Rather than appearing roughly as a straight line of equality (the "mean")the results resemble instead the familiar Bell Curve with most occuring bunched either slightly above or below the "mean" line of equality (the fat part of the Bell) but a distinct but diminishing number extending both above and below the "mean"
to a narrow point at the two extremes of the Inverted Bell.

If all the PokerTracker charts we hear of do in fact show a statistical equality of card distribution and winning hand result, roughly in accordance with the "mean", where are the few statistical anomolies located toward the narrow extremities of the Bell Curve, both above and below the "mean" line?

Surely if anyone had PokerTracker proof of such an anomoly they would be eager to share it on this forum but why haven't we heard from them? If the Bell Curve is a valid statistical concept these aberrations must be out there somewhere unless like "the dog that didn't bark" their absence sheds some doubt on the validity of the poker-sites claims of true randomness in their RNGs.

Re: guy claims he knows a pokerstars programmer that rigged the rng
 

Continuing to read the other forum was priceless and revealed gems like this:

"My straight flushes got beat by royal flushes at least five times... And this was a time span over two months."