yay me managed to turn pkt kings into a bluff
 

Hows my line here?
Stage #988873356 Tourney ID 1920991 Holdem Multi Normal Tournament No Limit $60 - 2007-11-21 04:39:46 (ET)
Table: 3 (Real Money) Seat #3 is the dealer
Seat 1 - MP+1 ($2470 in chips)
Seat 2 - HERO ($2125 in chips)
Seat 3 - BUTTON ($2340 in chips)
Seat 4 - SB ($2810 in chips)
Seat 5 - BB ($1345 in chips)
Seat 7 - UTG ($1955 in chips)
Seat 8 - UTG+1 ($1835 in chips)
Seat 9 - MP ($1945 in chips)
SB - Posts small blind $30
BB - Posts big blind $60
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to HERO [K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]]
UTG - Raises $180 to $180
UTG+1 - Folds
MP - Folds
MP+1 - Calls $180
HERO - Raises $720 to $720
BUTTON - Folds
SB - Folds
BB - Folds
UTG - Folds
MP+1 - Calls $540
*** FLOP *** [5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]]
MP+1 - Checks
HERO -?Figured i was pot commited so i pushed and hated it

Re: yay me managed to turn pkt kings into a bluff
 

if you push that you're horrible imo

Re: yay me managed to turn pkt kings into a bluff
 

[ QUOTE ]
if you push that you're horrible imo

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks it felt wrong at the time so we check fold then?

Re: yay me managed to turn pkt kings into a bluff
 

Not going to defend my play at all, i believe i played it badly but my table image was pretty tight and fwiw the villain in the hand had shown he was capable of calling a raise and folding to a bet previously.

Re: yay me managed to turn pkt kings into a bluff
 

There´s not much you can do here.

You reraised an early-position-raiser preflop and Villain called you. That probably means that he has a PP (like 99-QQ). If he had AA/AK he certainly would have reraised you for isolation. So maybe he has AQs, but unless Villain is a complete donk there are not much more unpaired hands that I could imagine.

Said this you are either way ahead (against a smaller PP) or way behind (against AQ). Check-fold is definitely too weak here. The pot has 1,710, your remaining stack is 1,405. Imho you´re committed anyway and destined to lose your stack is Villain has an A. On the other hand you don´t want to lose Villain when he holds something like QQ for example. So I made a "normal" contibet of about 700 and called a push.

By the way - you had UTG in a nice squeeze position, so the only way to prevent this situation would have been to reraise less pf, say making it 450. UTG would have been a hard decision and if he folded and Villain had called, you would have had a manageable pot with position.

While writing this I even come to the conclusion that the push is just not that bad (what was the buy-in?) as this massive bet could lead Villain with QQ to the conclusion that you have no Ace ... in the lowest stakes this might not function but in the middle/higher stakes it could even be a valid line. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Summarized - a check-fold is out of discussion and if you immediately push or bet-call the flop depends on your reads on your opponent.

Re: yay me managed to turn pkt kings into a bluff
 

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if you push that you're horrible imo

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Check-folding is horrible IMO...

Re: yay me managed to turn pkt kings into a bluff
 

Thanks for your considered reply tackleberry.
The buy in was $20 fo/ about 100 runners
At the time with the way it played out i honestly didnt see what else i could do.
Cheers

Re: yay me managed to turn pkt kings into a bluff
 

You have position on him correct? Why not just check behind him on the flop looking to get it in on the turn?

Villian is either way ahead and calling your flop bet or drawing to 2 outs with a smaller pp. The only way IMO you can get value from a worse hand is to check behind and see what he does on the turn. He could bet the turn with all hands he'd call the flop with along with lower pp's hoping to bluff you off of KK or QQ which he'd have to think is in your range at this point.

Re: yay me managed to turn pkt kings into a bluff
 

Standerd.

Re: yay me managed to turn pkt kings into a bluff
 

You made two errors in this hand:

1.) not shoving preflop - you raised, got reraised - now you should push with KK - this is standard

2.) not being able to lay down KK when an ace flops. You raise get reraised, an ace flops and villain checks. I think he has hit that flop in more than 90%. By not pushing preflop you have an awful potsize to play now. I think at best you will be up against QQ or JJ. Pushing is wrong here imo. The problem is with any bet you commit too much of your stack. I'd either check behind and fold on the turn or make a c-bet and fold to a push. Both lines suck. But the mistake was preflop imo.

Re: yay me managed to turn pkt kings into a bluff
 

I don't think a push pf is "wrong", but it's not my fav line here because I think we lose both villians most of the time, especially this early in the donkament. I usually say don't put in >20% PF with only a raise, just push, but the exception is QQ+, and sometimes AK.

Personally as others have said, I raise to 450 PF. I think your raise was too much of an overbet, and starts to look transparent when you put in that much PF. I mean what else puts in 1/3 of their stack?

I just open push this flop. Making a bet and then folding is terrible IMO, it's throwing away ANOTHER 1/3 of your stack. Pot. Odds.

I don't think QQ/JJ is calling anything on the flop anyway, so I'm not too concerned about losing hands we're ahead of anyway. At the same time, a push looks like it might be a bluff, and QQ/JJ might call. Fact is you should maximize your FE here.

Re: yay me managed to turn pkt kings into a bluff
 

[ QUOTE ]
[...] 1.) not shoving preflop - you raised, got reraised - now you should push with KK [...]

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero wasn´t reraised - he himself reraised a raise of 180 to 720. A push on a raise of 180 would have been a bit overscrewed here imho ...

Re: yay me managed to turn pkt kings into a bluff
 

Believe it or not i did have a plan in the hand and it might have been misguided.

My cunning plan was to reraise enough so that if i got a caller i could get it allin on the flop with a pot size bet.

my plan worked but obviously the A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] on the flop confused matters and made me feel it was a wrong move regardless of result.

Thoughts on this plan

Re: yay me managed to turn pkt kings into a bluff
 

[ QUOTE ]
You have position on him correct? Why not just check behind him on the flop looking to get it in on the turn?

Villian is either way ahead and calling your flop bet or drawing to 2 outs with a smaller pp. The only way IMO you can get value from a worse hand is to check behind and see what he does on the turn. He could bet the turn with all hands he'd call the flop with along with lower pp's hoping to bluff you off of KK or QQ which he'd have to think is in your range at this point.

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I think this is clearly the best analysis so far. The bet on the flop won't fold hands better than you and might fold hands worse than you, who would otherwise take a shot on the turn.

Villian's range has not been discussed in detail, I'll start by stating the obvious:

(1) Cold calls 3bb PFR from early raiser
(2) Pot reraised, calls 540 into a pot of 1170 (~2.2:1)
(3) Checks the flop with Ace on board

He has 1750 left (29BB) and pot is 1710. He is comfortable enough to bluff at the pot on the turn.

So he really wanted to see a flop, but is not interested in taking a shot after the flop. AQs, AJs, ATs, maybe even KQs,QJs,JTs; middle to high pocket pairs. The aces aren't folding, but the others probably will, IMO, to the flop bet.
Thus I really don't see a reason to bet the flop.

Re: yay me managed to turn pkt kings into a bluff
 

Yeah, I don't understand why there is so much disagreement about this. It seems a really standard check behind here. I also check behind big aces a % of the time here as the flush draw isn't really a worry unless he is bad enough to call pre with KQs and he's much less likely to believe you after you check behind. He has only 2 outs the vast majority of the time if he's behind so giving a free card isn't much of an issue.

Shoving the flop gets better hands to call and worse hands to fold whereas if you check behind you might be able to get value out of KK/QQ. Folding anywhere is awful though.

Re: yay me managed to turn pkt kings into a bluff
 

No way am I mucking kings after committing 1/3 of my stack.

By the way, definitely check behind on the flop. Call any shove and shove over the top of any bet.

Re: yay me managed to turn pkt kings into a bluff
 

I don't see why the raise is so bad. There was a call of the raise, so my standard would be 4x the original raise, which is 720. A raise to 480 or 540 as some suggested here is horrible imo. I would check this and try to get to the river cheaply. If he checks river I push for value.

Re: yay me managed to turn pkt kings into a bluff
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see why the raise is so bad. There was a call of the raise, so my standard would be 4x the original raise, which is 720. A raise to 480 or 540 as some suggested here is horrible imo. I would check this and try to get to the river cheaply. If he checks river I push for value.

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I don't like the river push.

As stated you are either way-ahead or way-behind. If we accept that you are probably not getting away from the hand, you shouldn't bet this flop.

If he's got an Ace then he's going to call you. He's not flat calling a raise and a re-raise with A-high only to fold it on this flop.

If he hasn't got an ace, then he's got a pocket pair (which could be a set). Again he's not folding the set (duh), but you've got to check the flop to allow him to bluff the turn or river with KK-JJ.

If he checks it down to the river its hard to see a worse hand calling your river push.