top two in huge pre-flop capped pot
 

Reads: MP3 is a tight weak player. 15/3/0.5, but I've only seen him raise really those top 3% hands. He was getting pushed around a bit on this table, so I don't know if he's getting angry.
UTG is an idiot. Sorry, I meant, not a very good player [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]. I normally see him donking around the 6-max tables, so I don't know what he's doing here at FR.
No reads on BB.

Full Tilt 0.25/0.5 Hold'em (9 handed) Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 caps</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Sorry, I know I should raise there pre-flop. But boy they sure made up for it, didn't they? MP3 definetly has Aces or Kings. The rest, I don't know yet.

Flop: (20.40 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

Ok, dump my top pair meh kicker on this giganourmous pot after it gets back raised. Maybe, but i still think I should see the turn. I can safely fold if a brick hits.

Turn: (16.70 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, Hero ???

Ugh, not exactly a brick. jeez...
Could there be a small possibility they are donking like their A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Ax for the nut flush draw? I'm almost getting the odds on my 4-outer...

Re: top two in huge pre-flop capped pot
 

Your relative position in this hand sux. Call down, its likely one of them is overplaying their hand and your getting just about the right odds (expecting to collect bets on the river) to fill up.

Re: top two in huge pre-flop capped pot
 

Pre-flop is OK. QJs plays well multi-way, so I would be happy to limp along in middle position.
On the flop you know that you are behind to MP3 for sure and probably BB as well. He led out into a capped pot, so I think it is fair to assume that he can handle QJ. It is quite conceivable that none of your outs are good here. I think you can fold when it comes back to you after BB's three bet, even getting fifteen to one particularly since there is every chance that it is going to be capped behind you. It is close though, and calling is not unreasonable. On the turn you are getting at least ten to one and possibly more if MP3 just calls behind you. With the implied odds when you hit your full house I think you have to close your eyes and call.

Re: top two in huge pre-flop capped pot
 

Preflop is ok IMO. Is UTG+1 an idiot too? If not, you might not have much equity vs him. Raising could help to isolate the idiot UTG on later streets if others don't join the fun. If the players acting after you are loose enough to cold-call then raising becomes better.

What would be your motives for raising preflop here?


Flop... if you think there's a good chance BB or MP3 holds AK your Q outs are all dead and J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] need to be discounted anyhow.

Turn.. so you've got two players left to act behind you, both have shown strength on previous streets, the flush and straight just completed -&gt; in all likelihood you aren't seeing the river for 2BB. Implied odds are very good though so...

I did consider a 3-bet (for a second) to:

a) maybe lose the tight weak MP3 with an overpair and 12 outs vs. us (GS+trips+better twopair), or even a straight as our 3-bet would look very strong here, like a flush here. This could lose BB as well if he's pumping AA or KK.

b) to isolate us vs. the idiot UTG

c) maybe get a free showdown


This is all probably wishful thinking in a pot this big so calling the turn hoping it doesn't get capped and J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] falling on the river for implied odds is ok IMO.

Re: top two in huge pre-flop capped pot
 

Preflop: Limping was fine. Fold when it's two back to you.

Flop: I hope I'm not being biased because I can see the action but if you really are sure that MP3 has AA/KK then I'd just fold because it looks like BB also has a big hand and you are going to have to pay a lot of bets to see the turn and you might not even be good if you catch.

Turn: I don't think I can fold with your redraw and the size of the pot. Hopefully BB/MP3 will be able to figure out that UTG probably has a set or straight here and won't jam. They might do it anyhow though if one of them has a set.

Re: top two in huge pre-flop capped pot
 

We are peeling just a little to call 2 here. But are ahead often enough to justify it. The hard decision is knowing we may have to decide whether to call 2 more since we are not closing the action. It will feel fishy to call 2 more. Probably the the right thing to do is call these two and fold to 2 more.

But I'm not going to do it. I am going to see the river no matter what and then decide. If it's a brick river and it's 2 to us on the river I probably fold then. If it is a brick river and only 1 to call I'm calling it.

WARNING: I think making fishy calls with 2 pair is a leak in my game. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: top two in huge pre-flop capped pot
 

fold pf after the reraise, and fold flop after its 2 back

Re: top two in huge pre-flop capped pot
 

Grunch.

PF: If MP3 is as tight as you say, I'm out of here on the re-raise. This might be weak tight, but when a 3% player is reraised there's a good chance it's coming back capped. I fold after the raises.

Flop: If I'm 90% certain MP3 has AA or KK I think I can fold top pair. Should I be looking at pot size? I'm getting 20-1 to call first time round, but I'm certain there'll be a raise behind me, so its more like 11-1. With only 3 clean outs, I think that equals a fold.

Turn. You're getting what, 9-1 for your redraw? 4 outs (assuming BB isn't playing JJ, which is quite a big likelihood, but nevermind). Since it looks like you'd get paid off if you hit, It's callable, though personally I might let MUTB scare me off this one. I strongly suspect JJ for BB and flush/straight for UTG. It's marginal.

Re: top two in huge pre-flop capped pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
fold pf after the reraise, and fold flop after its 2 back

[/ QUOTE ]

Amen!

Preflop is not as bad as flop. Preflop you call to flop a strong draw but that flop was not what you were looking for. People lose so much money with QJ when they hit one pair it is ridiculous. After all the strength shown preflop you have to fold when it gets three bet behind you. You are almost guaranteed to have it capped and you may hit an awkward turn card (ala Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]) that makes you want to continue on in another marginal situation.

Re: top two in huge pre-flop capped pot
 

:G:
I would have raised preflop like you said. From mp3's pfr stats and the fact that he capped preflop I think it's safe to say he has Aces or kings here...maybe queens. Seeing how tight he is I doubt he would 3-bet with AK let alone cap. BB's range is maybe a little more liberal without reads it's difficult to say.

Flop: Wow this is tough you have TP with an Ok kicker in the middle of a raising war. Normally I would dump here but the pot is soooo big I think you have to call and dump on a bad turn as you said.

Turn: This is really tricky.. suddenly UTG wakes up after just calling all the way through. I feel like he has a flush here but maybe he hit a worse 2 pair ? The pot is big here but I fold. The BB really scares me The only thing you beat here is an overplayed AA or KK from the BB. But I put the rest of his range on TT,JJ,QQ,AKs,or AK which all put you in really bad shape. Yes, you're getting close to 10:1, but if you apply this range to your opponent your outs may need to be discounted. Also if this range is correct how often is BB 3-betting here ?

This hand is tough and I'm not sure how good my analysis is but that's my take on the situation. In all honesty if I was playing this in the heat of the moment and wasn't analyzing the hand I probabaly would call down especially since I would be really pissed if I folded this big of a pot with 2 pair and BB didn't 3-bet, a Q or J came on the river, or everyone was overplaying their hand. With that in mind calling my be good if you tilt bad..

Re: top two in huge pre-flop capped pot
 

hmm I raise PF the first time to me..

This is very interesting hand and really I don't see us being ahead here like ever even w/ top 2, but the pot is huge. I think it's a call and just river the Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Re: top two in huge pre-flop capped pot
 

grunching...

Such a huge pot, and 4 players.

UTG has been calling all day long until the turn. Even he's an idiot, but I would still give him credit for holding something strong. Can't see him holding AK or QQ, or else he would have been playing strong on the flop. maybe a :Spade: suited connector that had made the flush.

BB and MP3 most prob holding some AA, KK, but more chance of MP3 holding KK, cos he seemed to just call on the flop when faced against BB's 3-bet.

You're facing 19.7:2, accounting for implied odds, which you can at least get 3 bets on the river. If a Js hits, you're going to collect more bets.

Re: top two in huge pre-flop capped pot
 

The first flop call is a lot closer than it looks like. BB donking out makes me put him on TT+, maybe AsKs. We know it's going to be raised behind us since we know MP3 holds AA-KK. Our best case scnario is that both of them hold AA-KK(because otherwise our outs will be tainted), but then it will be at least 3-bets. I can't make an other conclusion than that we need to fold the flop to the first donk


Turn is also close. There will often be a hand like QQ-JJ
out there so we don't have 4 outs on average. n the other hand I think MP3 will never fold and BB will rarely 3-bet so we are often getting 23:2. We will get ~4bb on the river if we spike it. 13.5:1. Hmmm close one. I hostly beleive foldng is slightly better, but I would probably peel.

Re: top two in huge pre-flop capped pot
 

I'd probably fold to the raise and reraise preflop. I'd probably fold again to the raise and reraise on the flop.

On the turn, I think the pot's now too big to fold and we have to chase our 4-outer. I can't really see us being ahead, even with top two, so I'm hoping for a good river. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: top two in huge pre-flop capped pot
 

When it comes back 3-bet preflop, and odds are that there will be a cap behind us, I'll fold this anyday. Especially against MP3s range...

When the flop comes back 3-bet, I'll fold for the same reasons as above. Top pair just isn't good enough...

On the turn, we now have odds to chase, but unless we hit a Q or J, this needs to be folded on the river ASAP. And I'm really not sure if we still have 4 outs...

This is one of those hands that can cause some headaches. These can be avoided by folding preflop... [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: top two in huge pre-flop capped pot
 

Those of you advocating a pf-raise the first time in, what are your reasons for this? Why do you favor it over also limping?


Hoping to keep it 3-way, and isolate idiot-UTG later, buy button? Hoping to get cold-calls and build a huge pot for good multiway hand?


We at least can't be banking on MP3 to cold-call much (or maybe we actually can because of his stats, not raising much but still playing top hands).

I just thought that getting a limper or two behind and usually the both blinds in would also build a nice pot for our multiway hand.

Re: top two in huge pre-flop capped pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Those of you advocating a pf-raise the first time in, what are your reasons for this? Why do you favor it over also limping?


Hoping to keep it 3-way, and isolate idiot-UTG later, buy button? Hoping to get cold-calls and build a huge pot for good multiway hand?


We at least can't be banking on MP3 to cold-call much (or maybe we actually can because of his stats, not raising much but still playing top hands).

I just thought that getting a limper or two behind and usually the both blinds in would also build a nice pot for our multiway hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

limping is ok, but imho raising can be better, depending on the table. with tight ppl behind you, i'd rather have position against 2 poor players. with loose ppl behind you, they'll probably call 2 anyway. so raising can be good either way. QJs is a textbook multiway hand, but it also has value in non-multiway situations vs loose players. if you flop a pair, you're likely going to win. so, raising is not really an isolation play on utg (it does help that he's a loose, poor player) but is basically a value raise vs their holdings.